2004 they lost 2 games in that season against far better sides than they are facing now - have results improved since then or have they got worse?

You can't say that - the fact they keep winning the comp has nothing to do with the quality it all about this superb bunch of players we are so fortunate to watch every week. Gareth thinks that so he must be right - in his own head!! The fact Leeds were crap in the 80s means we must appreciate it all the more?

This team should be appreciated on its own merits not because of what went before them - something Gareth really struggles with.

Actually i'd say the challenge from other teams in 2004 wasn't that good, Saints finished as low as 5th with 10 defeats in 2004, Wigan (4th) were on the verge of their slide which included missing the playoffs in '05 and '06, that left only Bradford and Hull. Compare to 2012 where Wigan and Wire are the best teams, Saints looking good after sacking Simmonds, Catalan a very dangerous team and Hudds looking like world beaters in the first half of the season as usual. Plus after the success Leeds have had since 2004 teams want to beat the GF & WCC winning Rhinos more than ever compared to the 'always the bridesmaid' Rhinos tag we had back then and raise their game accordingly.

They have also won 4 SuperLeague titles and 3 World Club Titles since that season. They are the only results that count.

This is absolutely crazy, I can't believe I'm even arguing this.

Does that mean that McLaren is doing Billy's mum?

Who isn't?

I'm not sure how Leeds can be considered to have been declining ever since 2004 since only a handful of players are still around from then. That and the fact we've won 6 competitions since then, including one last year and one this....

OTOH I do think that some of our 'performances' this year are worthy not just of questioning but criticism. Just because the team 'stand up when it counts', doesn't in my mind justify abject displays like Wigan at home. (Most) people at that game paid money to watch it. I have no problem at all if some don't care about the performance and result, but I also understand entirely why it upset other people (including GH it would seem).

Suggesting that supporters are somehow not worthy because they complain when the team plays like a shower of sh*te is ridiculous.

2004 and early 2005 was when this side played its best rugby - the current standard of play is miles away from that level.

It's not just wrong in terms of titles to to say "that" side has been in decline since 2005 - its patently NOT the same side.

We have 5 players who were in the team then. OTOH Mathers, Calderwood, Walker, Senior, Bai, Ward, McDermott, Diskin, Dunemann, McKenna, Lauti'iti, and Poching were all regulars in both 2004 and 2005, with Ellis was added to that list in 2005. Unless I'm mistaken I don't see any of those players in our current squad (most have been gone for more than a few years), so I'm not sure where you get the idea that the 2004/05 side has somehow declined at all.

If we are talking about the this being a golden era in the club's history then you cannot ignore 2004. My point is the standard of rugby being played now is world away from the quality offered in 2004/05 and yet the team is still able to win the GF - what does that say about SL in general

I am confused Sal. You proclaimed the rugby we played in 2008 under McLennan to be far better than anything we played under Smith.

I certainly don't think it is the case that big games are a lower standard than 2004/05. The Leeds-Wire game in the Play Offs last year was a genuinely high quality match played at a very high speed - one of the very best SL games I've seen, and I'm not at all sure the far less experienced 2004 side could have won it. Last year's GF compares very favourably as a match to 2009 and 2008, was probably a bit better than 2007 and was a better quality game than either 2004 or 2005 GFs in my view as well.

Sal is also completely wrong to suggest that the remainder of the competition was much stronger in 2004 and 2005. It was exactly the opposite.

It was a much weaker division. Here's an extract of Leeds results over a few months in 2005.

Fri 11 Feb SL Hull FC 12 - 16 Leeds Rhinos KC Stadium
Fri 18 Feb SL Leeds Rhinos 30 - 18 St Helens Headingley Carnegie
Sun 27 Feb SL Leeds Rhinos 66 - 8 Widnes Vikings Headingley Carnegie
Sun 6 Mar SL Huddersfield Giants 10 - 54 Leeds Rhinos Galpharm Stadium
Fri 11 Mar SL Leeds Rhinos 38 - 6 Warrington Wolves Headingley Carnegie
Fri 18 Mar SL Salford City Reds 12 - 30 Leeds Rhinos The Willows
Thu 24 Mar SL Bradford Bulls 12 - 42 Leeds Rhinos Grattan Stadium
Mon 28 Mar SL Leeds Rhinos 28 - 44 Wakefield Trinity Wildcats Headingley Carnegie
Sat 2 Apr CC-R4 Leeds Rhinos 26 - 22 Warrington Wolves Headingley Carnegie
Sat 9 Apr SL Leeds Rhinos 64 - 6 London Broncos Headingley Carnegie
Fri 15 Apr SL Wigan Warriors 14 - 38 Leeds Rhinos JJB Stadium
Sat 23 Apr SL Widnes Vikings 20 - 42 Leeds Rhinos
Fri 29 Apr SL Leeds Rhinos 44 - 14 Huddersfield Giants Headingley Carnegie
Fri 6 May CC-R5 Leeds Rhinos 70 - 0 Pia Donkeys Headingley Carnegie
Fri 13 May SL Leigh Centurions 4 - 60 Leeds Rhinos TBA
Fri 20 May SL Leeds Rhinos 42 - 24 Leigh Centurions Headingley Carnegie

Huddersfield, St Helens, Wigan amd Warrington are a million times more competitive now than they were then, as are many other clubs. If the 2004 squad featuring Chris Feather, Wayne McDonald, Matt Adamson, Richie Mathers and Mark calderwood had to face the current Warrington side in a playoff like last year's they would lose by 40 points, with no disrespect to that great 2004 side.

In reality Sal is looking for a league that we can walk through and isn't happy if we can't and then will only be happy if certain players are not shinning too brightly casting a shadow over his beloved Danny.