This is a debate that neither side can win, so probably best leave each to their own opinions.

Some will claim that BMD is a good coach & deserves credit & praise for the success during his tenure to date, & that he is incredibly unlucky in 2016 with the three retirees, flooding, injuries, lack of form of players etc all contributing to the position we are now in (season over at the beginning of May).

Others claim that BMD isn't a very good coach - he had a poor record at London, & that most coaches could have gained success with the Leeds squad he had at his disposal (as, indeed, did his two predecessors).

The problem is that neither theory can be proven, so why bother arguing with each other.

If Leeds lose all their remaining games & are relegated, it still could still be argued that players/circumstances were to blame.

If Leeds win all their remaining games, squeak into the top 4, get to & win the GF, it could all still be DESPITE BMD's influence, not because of it.

If Leeds do this I'll admit it was all down to McDermott.

I recall on here around 2013/2014 after writing off the 2011/2012 GF wins as "not his squad" that McDermott's biggest detractors said they'd give him credit if he won things after that with "his own squad"......he then won a treble and low and behold it still wasn't down to him.

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No you won't!

I said I would if it happens but you are right that I won't .... because it won't happen so I won't have to.

It is notable that those critics that were so unrelenting in their attempts to rubbish Lilley and Golding have kept quiet as these two have shown their judgement to be flawed. Both are good footballers and look to have class. You are right to point out Golding's brave display particularly as his bravery was disgracefully called into question. He also linked well for our first try as a good attacking fullback should do.

Or you'll disappear like you did in 2015 after writing them off previously and saying in 2013/14 that McDermott could only be credited with any success post 2012.

Season over? Leeds are fighting for survival. Everyones heard of the leicester city story. The miracle title win. But what about the Leeds rhinos story? The team that went from treble winners to rock bottom in 6 months flat.

But it is not the same team and that is the point you seem unable to grasp

Small consolation but to me it looks like Saints have a bigger job long term of getting back to the top table.They may have got on the right side of the close games as opposed to us this year and still be in the mix league wise but they were awful today against Hull and their team does look bang average across the board.

Saints this year are just so weird to watch. They've looked really poor and the only time we've put 30+ points on a team since the CCF vs HKR even if we did lose, yet they are still in the mix and are finding wins here and there and wouldn't be surprised if they grab 4th spot.....today might help them if Hull progress to a semi and a final.

But long term they look to be plodding along. Roby has hit the 30 mark so can't keep relying on him and Lomax never seems to last long before injury hits. At least with us in weird sort of way we're doing so bad it could give us a kick up the backside to make changes.....Saints if they're 4th/5th might not think they're far off and keep things the same.

We are the frog that has been dropped into boiling water. Saints are the frog that started off in cold water, slowly boiling to death.

I don't comment on performances that I haven't seen - preferably with the ability to review.

It surprises me when people do.

Good summary of it.

It weird, whilst we're having to eat a large sh*t sandwich in 2016, I reckon we'll still win silverware before St Helens do.

True.Long term the flukey 2014 win they got could turn out to be the worst thing to happen as it probably kidded them into believing they were still the top team when in reality they have been slipping away year on year.Flex summed it up nicely with his analogy.