half a metre per carry, at Ellis' carries per game, equates to nearly 400 metres a season around a 16% increase. Not a stat to be sniffed at. If we consider that, even been generous and ignoring the extra work of another set, teams lose around 45meters per penalty, Tomkins costs his team 1125metres, defensively. He makes another third of the errors Ellis did (in his worst season remember, whereas Wigan were dominant last year and this was Tomkins best year by a fair bit) and got sinbinned twice.

This is also ignoring that in 2008 (the year we are comparing) Ellis was playing inside pretty much anybody we could put there, a mixture of Watkins barely out of nappies, Ablett filling in, and He himself having to fill in. And ignoring Wigan being a dominant side in 2010 where as Leeds finished 2nd in 08.

Ellis > Tomkins > Ablett. IMO.

Tomkins could go on to be a very good international back rower. He didn't impress me in the 4 nations at the end of last season but then agin who in a white shirt did. I don't think he's ever going to be as good as Gareth Ellis, but they are two different types of players. Ellis is one of the best defenders I've ever seen. He may hav been prone to the odd wrong decision (something highlighted by Tim Sheens when he went over), but he used to fill gaps and make tackles that he just had no right to make. In his time with us he was solid if unspectacular ball in hand, but that doesn't doesn't mean he wasn't effective.
The comparison of Ablett with Tomkins is a much fairer one IMO, with Tokins being a level above Carl as we stand. When Ablett's really in the mood (as he was on Monday), you start to think about England Recognition, but he's got to put that sort of form together more consistently, in the big games.

Hock is back soon as well.... We all know what a t1t the man is but he's one player the Aussies really don't seem to like playing against. An England backrow of Burgess, Ellis, O'Loughlin with Hock off the bench would be the best we could put out (taking into account peak form, I know Hock isn't likely to hit this for a while) IMO.

You must've missed the two back to back games where he made 40 tackles each game.

Does he not score enough tries for your liking? You should try watching something other than the tryscorers.

You've had some reasoned responses but, in reality all your opinion (to which you're entitled) deserved was a

I think you're being overly harsh on Delaney here. He offers attributes which are stronger than any of the 3 you mention. He is the strpngest runner and hardest to put down of the 3. After Ablett he probably runs the best lines of anyone. He also defends strongly and would be more suited to defending further in. He offers a lot more impact IMO in a big game than Clarkson, certainly off the bench. CC is undoubtedly a great prospect, and a good player in his own right but if you compare there contributions ball in hand at Wembley last year, it was Delaney who looked like a strong running second rower.

He reminds me very much of Chris McKenna (which I've said before) in the way he came over as a centre, struggled to be creative in that postion but had all the attributes of a 2nd rower. McKenna played an important part in our success and I'd like to think Delaney could be the same.

Having said all that I'd leave him at centre for the forseeable future. If we get bodies back it's an option to consider but as we don't have any 3/4 at the moment I'd rather see Ablett develop as the international 2nd rower I believe he could be, than be shunted to centre...again!

Next year I'd like to see us sign a NRL centre with more pace and skill as I think this is by far our biggest need. Ideally then Watkins would start at centre with BJB at full back and a combination of Hall, Smith, Hardaker on the wings.

Ablett's progress has been massively hindered by playing out of position, injuries and the odd suspension at various points in career when he seemed to be hitting form. His game IMO is a lot more comparable with Ellis than Tomkins. I think he's one of the best players in the league who hasn't been a feature in international squads.

Yes, those 400 metres would almost close the gap between the 2126 to the 2577...if only it had a been a whole metre extra Ellis could have fallen forwards. After that, he'd only have to worry about tackles, marker tackles, tries and assists.

You can pick another Ellis season if you don't like 2008. The numbers don't change much.

I think you have misunderstood the comparison, the 16% increase is on Ellis metres per carry. Ellis' metres per carry are 16% greater than Tomkins. Every run he makes 16% more.

Pick any Tomkins year you want, there is still masses of errors and masses of penalties. But why dont we look at 2005, where Leeds still werent dominant but were much better than 2008. Where we have in 200 less games only 300 fewer yards, 10 more offloads, 5 fewer missed, tackles, 6 fewer errors, and 28 fewer penalties. But that still, we both have to admit, doesnt count the intangibles like the quality and technique of Ellis defensively which in my personal opinion Ellis excelled at and Tomkins not so much.

Dont get me wrong, I think Tomkins is a good player, It just dont think he is, or ever will be of the level Ellis is and was. I also think he will be outshone by what Farrell has the potential to be.

Not at all. Would you really take 50 cm more per carry, rather than a work rate that gives 400 m more over a season?



Ellis years. You were complaining I picked a bad year for Ellis. I know it's late, so I'll let it go for you

Arguably Leeds were more dominant in 2005, in fact there isn't really too much argument about it, until Joe Vagana sat on Keith's leg.

It depends which sort of player you need to complement what you already have. Tomkins is obviously more dynamic, Ellis less error prone and more reliable. I'd take Ellis out of the two if pushed to make a choice.

And just to butt in to the other debate.....
I suggested England should use Tomkins as a 3/4 last season only to be laughed out of town!

I'd have Ellis any day of the week in the 2nd row, (what we'd do to have him back at Leeds). I'd also leave Tomkins at centre where he's less likely to spit his dummy, yet can still influence the game with his undoubted talent.

Know what you mean about Ellis.....but second row really is the least of our problems at the moment.

We'd end up with yet another make shift right centre ...Ellis now also being the best in [ithat[/i position before his fellow back rowers Ablett and Delaney.

Agree ref Tomkins.

Yes, definately. Somebody else had took those carries in(the carries which are the difference between Ellis' total and Tomkins total) Somebody else made yards. Ellis is making more metres every time he takes the ball in, he is pushing the defence back further, making them work harder everytime he has the ball. More yardage moves us further downfield but is also more likely to result in a quicker ptb which effects the next play.
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Well it's OK then if someone else is doing the work. Ian Kirke for England!
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I picked the most recent SL season for both. You think Ellis was getting worse as time went on then?


Why wouldn't you judge a wide running second row on tries scored?
You could judge him on metres made, tackles made or marker tackles though. Certainly those are numbers more meaningful than yards per carry.



You take slow and steady then, and I'll take exciting attacking players who scare the opposition.

BTW, that "better offloading ability" led to less than an offload a game in Ellis's last season here.