McGuire was dire last night it happens - he has been a major contributive in the success of this team over the past ten years. To dismiss him as a fat track bully simply illustrates your inability to understand what you see with your own eyes. He hasn't got the speed anymore to take the line on - neither has his half back partner who was equally dire last night but escapes your attention - as he always does. Him walking on the surface of the River Aire must have real impressed you? Isn't that what he does because there is no other justification for the idolisation you give him based on what has happened on the pitch over the past eighteen months.

I would like to see you out there on the field facing sixteen stones guys running at you - it would be hoped they had several pairs of shorts as you certainly would be needing them!! No player who goes out on field at this level let's their booty fall out - to suggest so is - as Gareth said - a ridiculous comment.

I know you have a strong dislike for Kirke, and I'm not even saying he should stay in the 17 and the club beyond this year (he shouldn't). But calling him spineless is very poor on your behalf. Like you said before when defending anybody who steps onto a rugby pitch, it takes bottle and making 30+ tackles against a good Wire showing hardly lacking in spine......his ability in question yes, spineless.....poor comment.

I calls it as I see it. Wouldn't use that phrase for any other Leeds player, whether they be good, bad or terrible, Even Joe Vickery had a go. Kirke steals a living.

Don't quote me 30+ tackles like it shows the lump can defend. I saw all I needed to see about his defence when Leeds went 12 nil down. Leaning on 3rd man in 30 times doesn't make him a defensive machine.

Kirke, my topic du jour? I guess you haven't been reading my posts on him four the last five years. I've complained about his pathetic "efforts" for quite some time.

I'm no McGuire fan. It seems his best days are way behind him and I'd prefer to see Burrow, when fit, back at 7. Last night McGuire was truly dreadful (not alone). However, I've never seen the lad put in a "spineless" effort. He was having a dig last night against a well beaten pack. His defence was as bad as it sometimes can be and he wasn't helped by the player inside him.

But spineless, not this Leeds legend.

Never called him a defensive machine, neither do I think ALL his 30 tackles were as 3rd man.

I'm not, REPEAT NOT, saying he was/or is good enough. But some of what you've come out with is poorer than any effort from Kirke.

Meh, I'm sick of watching his lack of effort. It irks me. Often we get by despite his lack of effort causing too much hassle due to the 16 other lads that carry him but last night his worst traits put us squarely in a 12 point hole.

Not saying we would have won without him but even when Wire were busting us every other player showed desire and effort. But not the spineless lump.

I can be rational and objective about every other player. Like Gilder said in his mis=directed comments, I can't abide lack of effort.

Can anyone explain why Kirke gets selected
Somebody must see something in him.

If you thought McGuire was putting in effort last night Gareth, we must have been watching different games.

I can understand Bywater's impassioned defence, but I wouldn't have expected it from you.

Oh and David, I'm not getting paid a substantial sum of money to stand in front of 16 stone blokes and be run at. He is. HTH.

No you are not but that doesn't make it OK for you to make comments that are inaccurate?

You are not on the field nor were you privy to what McDermott tactics were? If you knew you were having a bad night what would you do? Most likely you would limit your involvement to a minimum and reduce your impact into the game. That is what professionals do its part of being a member of a team.

You only look at games on a very superficial level, the nuances of the game go straight over your head. I accept he had a terrible game but he was not alone and that includes your sacred cow.

Fair enough. I only watched it the once (and won't be watching again) but I genuinely didn't see a lack of effort or any shirking. I saw some some spectacularly awful attempts at defending which were bad even for Danny's never great defensive abilities. He didn't do much with the ball but, then again, neither did Sinfield. Neither could any half have done much behind such a beaten pack (though I accept Sutcliffe showed some flashes individually).

Guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Sutcliffe took over at stand off (in a team that was already beaten) & showed some promise...............lets face it Danny is a spent force (both in attack & defence). We need to give Sutcliffe an extended run at No. 6 to give him chance to prove that he is good enough (rather than in & out of the team like he has been for too long).
As soon as Robbie Burrows is back, he should be an automatic choice at scrum half & get Sir Kevin back into the pack (where he should be) !

You just lost all credibility with your misnomer of beep beep

I thought he lost it when on a previous thread he asks for more grunt from the forwards then goes and says Sinfield should move back to the pack.

I watched the first half and then called it quits. Thats the first time in over 45 years which tells you everything you need to know about that game imho.

Possibly incorrect, but I wouldn't be surprised if a number of players - McGuire included - are more focused on the Cup game than many would credit. They've never won it. Its not unhear of for a player to realise it isn't going to be their day and back off with a view to saving themselves for the next week. A very silly thing to do IMO - playing half-heartedly tends to attract exactly the sort of injuries players are trying to avoid - but we've all seen it.