That's fair comment. I can appreciate that Brough was faced with a difficult choice. It doesn't change the fact that the decision he made was effectively to abandon the England cause.

Except, of course, you know, those weeks when it mattered, like the playoffs and the cup, just as has always been the case.

Brough IMO outplayed Sinfield on every occasion they faced each other in 2013 - including a game that should matter a great deal to both in the Challenge Cup.



8th March 2013 - Leeds 8 - 32 Huddersfield (Sinfield and Brough at stand-off)



11th May 2013 - Huddersfield 24 - 8 Leeds (Brough and Sinfield at stand-off)



The away game at Huddersfield in June Sinfield missed with a damaged thumb but again Leeds couldn't contain Brough who engineered the 40 - 18 Huddersfield win.

So to summarise:



The comparative ability of one individual player versus another can be defined solely by the results of their teams. Ergo, Ian Kirke is better than Tony Puletua.



The comparative merits of one poster's opinions versus another can be defined by how well they did in a prediction competition on an internet messageboard.



The world according to tvoc.

You said Brough outplayed his "opponents" more or less "on a weekly basis". I pointed out that he didn't do so in the games that mattered.



Why are you now just referring to two specific games and one specific opponent?

That, in my reading, amounts to the player telling the coach "you have the chance to select me. But if you don't pick me next time, no more second chances." Players shouldn't (in my opinion) be giving international coaches "first refusal" on their services. Do you think that's OK?



Brough's response to not getting picked mid-season should have been to roll his sleeves up and play his way into the team. He did subsequently play well enough to make his point, and made himself almost impossible not to pick. Sadly he had already chosen to make his point in another way and withdraw his services.



That, in my opinion, is not the sortt of player you want in the trenches with you in a World Cup, as much as in pure playing ability terms he would have been the strongest option.



The key point is that he was overlooked in world cup year, but not for the world cup. He took himself out of that equation. Which makes the point about whether we'd be a stronger team if he played a moot one doesn't it?

How is this even a discussion?



Both are players of immense talent and vision, both have great kicking games and one has a bit more pace than the other, but not so much pace that it should be considered a huge asset. The guy lacking pace, however, has ten years of being the best captain and on field organiser in the league, a proven leader of men, excellent decision maker and better when the chips are down than just about any other player these isles have to offer.



So who do you really want leading England around the park at a World Cup? The guy who's a bit faster and a bit more flashy, but has ultimately failed to rise to the big occasion throughout his generally inconsistent career or one of the most consistent players SL has seen and the coolest head in the business?



Sinfield is controlling this team in a way I simply don't believe Brough is capable of, he has their respect in a way I don't think Brough could have, and if you genuinely believe that lacking a little bit of pace is more important than the multitude of things that Sinfield brings to this team then you either have an agenda or a lack of understanding.

Glad it not just me that thinks thats the case.

Gilder, the prediction comp is just for fun.



Perhaps you'll enter a selection next season?







As I said I believe he did outplay his opponent more or less on a weekly basis from what I saw of Huddersfield in 2013 as he steered his team to, for them, unheard of heights of consistency and justifiably IMO earned selection in the SL Dream Team while also taking out the Man Of Steel along the way and yet seemingly didn't do enough to represent his country of birth in a home World Cup at that season's end.



The use of the Leeds - Huddersfield games in this context put him head to head with one of his rivals for an England shirt (and one of the subjects of this thread) and that included a game that you said =#0000FF'those weeks when it mattered, like the playoffs and the cup.' That was a contest he led his team to win and they did so despite being down to twelve men for the final twenty.



If you have any examples of Sinfield (or Chase) getting the better of Brough in 2013 perhaps you could add them here:



?

I don't know the ins and outs or the precise sequence of events or how much has been released to the media but I would ask what more Brough could have done to earn selection in 2013? For me he was the leading player in one of the leading teams throughout the season - indeed from week one at St Helens and his form throughout more than warranted a place in the England squad preparations.







Was he wanted by McNamara? I can't answer that but the signs are that he was not.







No disputing that the point is a moot one now but it's passed the day.



I've no idea whether Brough is a good squad player or not, whether he is the sort to have in the trenches with you or not but neither am I sure that he couldn't have been handled better by the England management who appear to have deprived themselves of a player who could have offered an added running and passing threat - something IMO England will ultimately need to take the game to the Southern hemisphere giants.

Brough has said recently that McNamara told him way back in February that he had no intention of picking him for the World Cup and McCormack has backed that up by saying he knew Danny would be available ever since February. So why did it take until June to have his post match dummy spit after they beat Saints?



Did Brough hope McNamara would change his mind and wait to see the squad for the Exiles match and reconsider.....even though he'd already indicated to McCormack he'd play for Scotland? Makes a mockery of his claims of being so proud to play for Scotland.



Has Brough lied about McNamara omitting him from the WC squad EIGHT months before the tournament began. Why would any coach, especially one who gave him his debut 8 months prior (and picked him for Exiles 2011 before injury) rule out anyone that early when he could suffer an injury crisis?



Either McNamara didn't like Brough's attitude or approach when he got him around the squad or Brough is making up lies to keep up his outcast hero role going with his followers.



Either way, all potential answers don't paint Brough in a good light or a true leader or dependable man.....more a guy who is only really interested in himself and wants to be the star of the show.

Point of order, Brough's dummy spit happened (publicly at least) in June. So what more he could have done to earn selection "in 2013" isn't the right question. What he did after June is irrelevant as he had already ruled himself out by then.



If I'd been selecting the team mid-season (which of course I wasn't but I wasn't party to the decision making process of the England coach) I would have been sharing concerns that Brough had a touch of the pre-Smith Briers about him - that he was hugely talented but inconsistent and of questionable temperament. So what more could he have done? Maintain his form right through the season perhaps? He did that, but had already refused "to play second fiddle" any more. Up to him, but no player should hold that it is their right to be selected as first choice. Sinfield, Myler and Chase were ahead of him in the pecking order, he needed to be patient.



If not picking him in May/June was what it took to "deprive themselves of a player" then again, that amounts to the player holding a (highly metaphorical) gun to the head of the coach. You are entitled to your view on whether that's the case and whether it's wrong, as am I. But mine is that it is the wrong way for an aspiring test player to behave, and doesn't do much to allay my concerns that his temperament isn't what it might be.



I am disappointed that he isn't part of the England squad for the World Cup, as you are. But we differ in that, while I'm not altogether convinced by the current coach, in this instance I am inclined, based on the information visible to us both, to blame the player and not the coach.