Yeah it did help being given a quality NRL winger in Marcus Bai, he dropped Cummings for all of 2 games and he then featured in 21 of the remaining 26 league games (even being selected on the bench a couple of times).



Until we lost both 2005 finals, got knocked out by mid table teams in both comps 2006 and dropped back to 3rd even behind Hull, got knocked out of the 2007 CC by a mid table team and only nicked 2nd from Bradford courtesy of the Tansey Magic Weekend Try which if disallowed would've seen him have to attempt to win from 3rd, a very different prospect then for the legacy cementing 2nd GF win.

He did improve results versus Bradford. However at the end of 2004 we finished the season 15pts clear of Saints yet over the next three years they picked up 6 titles to our 2. Even Hull who we were 10pts clear of in 2004 had overhauled us by 2006.

McDermott has gotten stick for getting knocked out of the CC at the 5th Round stage this year but at least he got knocked out by a team who finished 1st in the SL table. Likewise his 2 final defeats came against the team who finished 2nd that year in the table. Smith got knocked out by the teams who finished 5th (2004 & 2005), 6th (2007) and when Hudds beat us in 2006 they placed NINTH in the table and had no big game experience under their belt at that time. McClennen got bettered by the teams finishing 1st (200icon_cool.gif 2nd(2009) and 3rd (2010).

Likewise for McDermott (and McClennen) missing out on the GF, well at least he got beat by the team that went on to win it and at least reach the Qualifying Semi to be 80 mins away from Old Trafford.
The only time in the last 11 seasons we haven't been at least 80 mins away from Old Trafford is when Smith got us knocked out by 6th placed Wire in the first week of the playoffs (again a team lacking in recent big game experience).

Saints had been so good over the previous 2 years heading into the 2007 GF (even managing the rarity of winning Sports Personality Team of the Year in 2006) and became the team the beat and fear (the role many thought we had taken hold of after 2004, but let slip so easily) that they we plenty of people doubting whether we could catch them and beat them, many thought not.



Do people care them nights McDermott has won at Old Trafford, no. But it didn't stop some of his detractors telling us "it's papering over the cracks" all the time.

Personally I don't think referring back to the 32 year gap for the title strengthens Smith's achievement. He, like any coach, should be judged for what he did in his years. For what he did in 2004, not what others failed to do in 1994, 1984 or 1974. I can understand it meaning more to fans who endured it, but weighing his achievements as a coach heavier because of others previous failures doesn't sit with me.

I would disagree that once a big club has fallen on hard times its a hard monkey to get of the back. Before it was constantly the year of the wolf, it was always the year of the rhino.

I agree Eagle the 3 decades + of under-achievemant ,over-spending on "superstars" and nearly going under should never be under-estimated.

Yes for the fans it may have always been year of the rhino again and again....but it wasn't for Tony Smith, fresh in, no baggage of failure, no several years of thinking "is this my year", likewise nearly all his squad. They'd had a near miss the year before but most teams need that before getting the big one (see Wire and Hudds now, and Wigan fell just short 3 years in a row before 2010).

At times during that 32 years sure there was hard times but I wouldn't say at that particular point we were on hard times. The squad was looking as exciting as it had done for a long time, the club had actually gotten one monkey off their backs with the 99 CC.

If failure of previous coaches added pressure to Smith's job, was it any greater than the pressure McClennen or McDermott felt with having to keep success up? Look at Moyes at Man Utd, even Dean Lance after Graham Murray shows success of one coach doesn't mean the next one will keep it going.


Smith's success as a coach in 2004 (not what it meant as a fan, as that is a different thing and understandable) should be based solely on what he achieved in a little over 32 weeks of action that year, not what others did (or didn't do) in the previous 32 years.

Pretty much everything you posted here is contradictory or just plain wrong.

Define "rapidly west"? Do you mean finishing second in the league table (after leading for much of the year), being 60 seconds away from winning the CC and narrowly defeated in the GF by a salary cap cheating Bulls team which rocked out with a pack containing JP, Fielden in his prime and Adrian Morely amongst others. All after losing the most potent attacking player in the league for the business end.

How can we have been "inconsistent" yet finished 1st, 2nd, and 2nd in three of his 4 years in charge and reached 3 Grand Finals? You've fallen into the Whinos trap of only believing we were successful because everyone else was rubbish. Really, you actually believe that the Saints team that won everything in 2006 was not competition for any other season? And that the Bulls faded away to nothing after their domination up to 2003?

"Things only recovered weeks before Smith was leaving"? What nonsense. We topped the table in 2007 for a good proportion of the season and competed head to head with the 2006 all conquering Saints team for the entire year (beating them twice in the regular season) and only missed out on top spot by a single point to them. Then we finished the job with a thumping of both Saints and Wigan to lift the Championship.

It's a salary capped sport - no team has won everything every year since the days of Wigan and Mo's big wallet.

There's rose tinted specs and then there are brown tinted specs - and the brown stuff isn't chocolate sauce.

Coaches can only be criticised, because they can only fail. Unless you win every game you have failed as a coach. Win one Championship and failure is to not win every Championship. Smith won with Powell's team, Bluey won with Smith's team and McD won with Bluey's team. Do you have any idea how f****g stupid that sounds? How can you give credit to a coach for building a winning team but not give them credit for winning with it themselves?

Then we get the "nobody will clriticise Smith" brigade. Well, he did make mistakes - there is no human in history who hasn't - definitely no sporting coach that's for sure - so that's hardly a bombshell is it? Smith turned Leeds into a consistently competitive Rugby League team with a realistic chance of winning trophies - something we hadn't been for 30 years. It's something we have maintained for 6 seasons since his departure. And it isn't because everyone else suddenly turned c**p.

spot on.the real measure of all the coaches and players we have had during this great period for the club will probably not come to the fore for a few more years yet.we are still in the midst of our glory period, albeit probably the back end now so its still a bit early to measure the real greatness of particular people during the period.

a few barron years later and we will all look back and will appreciate things a little bit more how they should be I feel.one thing is certain I feel, tony smith will be right up there at the top when talking about figure heads of this great period for the club.

Who is Cumings?

If you're referring to Francis Cummins he wasn't dropped for two 1st grade games - it was for one. As I said, IMO it was Tony Smith's quite deliberate message to the players and the fans - no more room for sentimentality. It was a stroke of genius even if it flew over some heads.

Cummins was and I imagine still is a good fella but he'd been allowed to steal a living at Headingley for too long and was emblematic of some of the issues surrounding the club pre Smith.

_____



So using your own terms what did Smith achieve with Leeds in 2004 after leaving aside their first Championship in 32 years ?

Leeds finished the Regular Rounds in 1st place - nine points clear of the rest (a SL record that still stands) having lost only twice (equaling another SL record) - they finished the Regular Rounds with the best attack and the best defence.

Ignore the 32 year wait all you want (perhaps easier to do when you haven't endured it personally) - there was more to the impact and improvement under Smith than just ending the wait.

You're right about what he and the team achieved in 2004, it was great and I'm not saying it wasn't. So their is no need to sweeten it even more with comparisons to the failures of the previous 32 years.....it doesn't need it.

I would have Tony Smith back here in a heartbeat. Without a second's hesitation. He's a Great coach and his record speaks for itself.

Smith, Bluey and Mac have all done some excellent things. They also all done thing I didn't agree with.

Comparing their achievements is difficult. For league consistency Smith was the best but I'd argue he possibly had a younger, slightly hungrier squad. 2004 and 2005 are the best I remember us playing over a long period-I'd argue the rugby pre Seniors injury in 2005 was better than 2004. Powell had undoubtedly laid some great foundations and I believe he would have got us over the line eventually. Smith however certainly improved some standards and small things at the club. The signing of Bai and Lauitiiti should also not be overlooked. Bai in particular was the first winger at the club for a long time who could actually dominate physical exchanges and bust tackles returning the ball. At the time we were sadly lacking this sort of player. In 2007, despite what he'd achieved I was glad smith was leaving. I thought he made stranger selection decisions throughout his tenure and in my opinion we needed a change.

Bluey was a great motivator. He continued the success however I don't think many will argue that out structures over his 3 years in charge became less efficient. He had that ability however to raise players for big games which suited this squad well.
Again though, when it was announced he was leaving, I remember being pleased.

Mac has had more criticism than either of the above. Is some of it justified? Yes probably. Is some of it ridiculous? Definitely. He has led leeds to 2 Grand Finals. Last year was slightly disappointing however out league form was much more consistent and we were unlucky to drop some points ie. magic game v Wigan. I imagine there is a focus this year on being better in the regular rounds again. Like many, I'd like to see more rotation at times. But I'm pretty sure I've said similar with both over coaches. Mac does a lot of work with the foundation and speaks very well about the club and the game. He strikes me as an honest figure who will accept his mistakes and consistently try and better himself. The players seem to genuinely love playing for him and he is well respected within the club and amongst his peers.

All 3 will be fondly remembered in time I imagine. Can we draw a line under the petty point scoring now and just accept that not all of is agree. After all, I still see the merits of re-signing Ian Kirke and I think I'm virtually alone in that!!!

I agree. The signing of Kirke and his successful integration into the side in 2006 & 7 was a great achievement and one the club has continued to benefit from for the next 7 years! Will you be going to his testimonial match in 2016 Gareth?!!

Think we would all agree on one thing


We wouldn't take Dean Lance back

As someone who has followed Leeds RL and rhinos for quite a while !! . For us to achieve the success under Smith, bluey and B Mac is a dream come true for me.
Over the years I along with several of my pals witnessed some low points,the semi final defeat at Central Park against widnes one that springs to mind.
Also the years we spent being walloped by widnes and Wigan , so I tend to remain neutral in the arguments about who is the best rhinos coach.
I have the odd reservation about B Mac, but I think he is a work in progress and as head coach he will or should improve year on year, as he gets more experience .
One thing for certain is over the last few seasons we have seen some wonderful players wear the rhinos jersey .

I'm not among those agitating for the removal of the current coach. But when he does move on (as coaches do), does anyone else think we could do worse than Darryl Powell?

I wonder how badly those bridges were burned?

Always felt he was given the top job at Headingley a few years too soon.

I rate Darryl Powell very highly,that's why I have tipped cas to have a good season.
I suspect if B Mac had not produced the goods Darryl would be first choice for GH . Especially as I believe they are good pals.