I have no agenda with Hall, I think he's an excellent winger, I even stated in the post he is a supremely powerful athlete, I just don't have an unhealthy biase like you, and can see difficiencies aswell as good, as with any player.

You did not show anything wrong from my statement about the London game, in fact you highlighted a lack of knowledge of the game if you felt it was immense, and indeed referred to stats that you normally put down if it doesn't show your argument with the parts of games stats don't show. What you highlighted was the number of metres he made in that game, and indeed you are pointing it out again about Friday, I wouldn't argue with that. Of course, when you are put away in space metres are more easily made from a winger, especially a good one like Hall. You never mentioned how many metres the other backs made at London which were not far off, despite our attack always going left to Hall. You also never mentioned the poor defence and errors from Hall in the London game, just like I suspect you will ignore this week. Hardaker made more metres at Salford than Hall did at London, I missed your immense tagging for that one.

Look at London and look at hull KR, he bombed tries, simple as that. My issue was, as I put after the London game is that he doesn't read a game, not quick enough mentally on the pitch. Loads do not that are out there, and he has other big qualities, but it has bombed quite a number of tries this season because of it. He earned his tag previously of WBW, but now he isn't Super Leagues best this year. I am sure he will get it back though, if that helps, and also sure due to the distinct lack of options he may even get a dream team spot. But for every stat that shows metres, there is also the undenying stat that for the past four years before now he has been in the top two error makes for the club, two of those the top one. I don't know where he is this year, but wouldn't be surprised if he is up there again. To you, because of this unhealthy biase, you would blame those errors on someone else. For the avoidance of doubt, I think Hall is an extremely good winger/player, I don't however think he is matching his previous seasons performances, and don't think that is do with his centre.

You are probably right that I was harsh to say he is the winger under threat, silly even. I was more trying to point out that Duckworth looked the better of the outside backs on Friday.

On the BJB, I can live with that mis-tackle on Lovergrove, thats easily fixed. Him him harder next time and put him in row 7!

What more annoyed we was the ball he got in mid-field, which got me thinking "if only Zak had picked up the ball there".

Ryan Hall 7 tackle busts (lead the team), 215 metres (led the team......again) highest average gain per carry (led the team) clean breaks (led the team)

We watch a different game mate, I'm not sure I can add much more than that.

No we watch the same game. You just have an unhealthy biase, like I said above.

Two Ryan Hall errors resulting in 8 points for Hull KR.

Another Two Ryan Hall errors resulting in two bombed tries for Leeds.

That's a 20 point swing mate, and it doesn't include the two poor passes to team mates who would also have had walk ins.

What were his missed tackles by the way?

Those are the actual things that happened. I don't dispute metres, althought I would point out, he doesn't make them from dummy half, he is put clear by team mates, which as a winger he should be. Compare that to Duckworths on Friday, which were all of his own doing. I also don't dispute tackle busts, which is why I have commented many times, he is a supremely powerful athlete. But why do you ignore what is right in front of your face?

This isn't and never was a bag Ryan Hall, I have made that clear. But ignoring actual events just to continue an unhealthy obsession seems strange.

It ain't necessarily so.
It is commonplace for wingers to come in to DH when the PTB is in their own half.
Making the gain-line is important in one's own half and a scooting winger a) can get there faster, thereby improving metres-made and b) relieves some of the whole-game effort off others.
Hall is a persistently willing undertaker of that duty and, not only that, attracts multiple defenders doing it and often gains a couple of further metres via strength and leg drive.

As a winger, his bigger metres come off passes to him but we should not say he doesn't make any from DH.

Duckworth runs from dummy half...nil.
Ryan Hall runs from Dummy half 1.

Over the course of the season Ryan Hall has made more runs from dummy half than any other outside back, in fact, more than any other leeds player bar Burrow, McShane and Sinfield.

Like I said, we're watching different games Gotcha.

Hall has also played more games than most which is why I tend to think looking at an average per game gives a truer picture.

Earlier in the season you said something along the lines of the Opta Stats being a bigger work of fiction than anything JK Rowling could imagine (and that related to dummy half runs by Hall - despite Opta being correct on that occasion) and now here you are making points using the same reference material you rubbished earlier.

Jones-Bishop since his return is averaging 1.67 dummy half runs a game to Hall's 1.04 over the full season minus one game but as ever with Opta that is to miss the bigger picture. The back three will often work as a unit on deep kick returns - one fields the ball - one takes the dummy half role to either pass or scoot depending on what's in front of them at marker - the other goes to first receiver to try and pick off the quick cheap metres on the fringe against the partially set condensed defence.

I would suggest the bulk of dummy half runs from the back three are as a result of 1st tackle plays off kick returns - sometimes that will be the only option available and as such are dictated more by the direction of an opposition kick than any perceived higher work rate.

Nonetheless, Gotcha was saying that Hall didn't make metres from dummy-half runs ... and he does.

Quite.

I didn't introduce dummy half runs into the equation, Gotcha did. In fact, what he said was..



I never claimed anything regarding the interpretation of those stats, other than to demonstrate that Hall does, quite clearly work from dummy half and he's is obviously not deficient in that aspect compared to our other wingers, as Gotcha claimed he was.

I think you have misunderstood what I said. I maybe did say it simple, but all the same misunderstood.

I wasn't saying he didn't run from dummy half, I was meaning his metres made are from free space and passes to him. That is where the majority of his metres are made.

I never claimed no such thing, you have interpreted that, some fog knitting on your part it would appear. If anything he comes in too many times to dummy half. Hall's quality is space which allows him to build up momentum and hit one on one. From dummy half he can not get he legs moving, and hence why the high metres he makes come from space, rather than dummy half runs.

Concentrate on the information at hand, and comment on that rather than making up your own interpretation of things. I understand how you have come up with it, but you have still misunderstood it.

How about concentrating on what I actually said, rather than digressing on the subject. I said Hall had didn't have a good game, infact I didn't even go that far, I said Duckworth looked better than him. You said but he made all these metres, I said what about the errors and defensive mistakes. Then you appear stumped.

I suggest you read my first post, a few pages back.


Was I wrong?

.What you said was

Call me crazy but I thought you were saying Hall doesn't make metres from dummy half? Unless he goes backwards when he is making more runs from dummy half than any other Leeds outside back then I am at a loss to understand what on earth you mean, not for the first time. Then again, I suspect that means neither of us know what you mean.

Now that you have adjusted your over-simplification from "...he doesn't make them from dummy half" to "...that <[iin free space[/i> is where the majority of his metres are made.", I'm happy on that point.
Why you mentioned dummy-half work at all is beyond me.



As for ...

I don't have the energy to argue so I'll follow your example and say that's just stoopid.

So after all that bitching, nipping, and slapping, are you agreeing that Duckworth looked better than him on Friday or not?

That was the comment I made, and the one where you came wading in telling me I had an agenda against Hall. Yet, despite that and me agreeing with you that he made metres before you got your hands on the stats, that's all you have given us, his metres made. I pointed dout that Hall made two errors that gave Hull KR 8 points, and made another two that bombed two tries for us.

When you look at the metres made and average gains, the likelyhood is that had Duckworth been afforded another 8 carries to match Hall, had the team passed to the right, then he would have had another 80 metres. He didn't make errors that cost his side. He did drop a ball from a shocking piece of play from Burrow that would have been a try otherwise.

On the balance of that, I stick by what I said, Duckworth was the better player on Friday night. But I conceede, as I did two pages ago that I was harsh to say Hall would be the one to leave out.

You know very well what I meant on the dummy half and metres, you didnt' even pick it up until someone else mentions it for you.