I fell sleep half way through this paranoia driven rant!!

He selected somebody else. Our man of steel duly had a hissy fit and rediscovered his Scottish patriotism. Because he's a fighter like that.

Yet stayed awake long enough to reply with the usual BS you post when stalking me!

IIRC the line at the time was that one McCoach had the first option to select him but didn't (despite Brough outplaying his opponents more or less on a weekly basis during 2013) which alerted the other McCoach to inquire if Brough would be available for Scotland instead.

RL World Cups tend not to come around that often or on a reliable schedule and I'm not surprised when players take any chance open to play in them. Only surprised that with a highly competitive group of forwards and finally a few potentially exciting backs that one of the very few talented English born and bred half-backs could be overlooked in a World Cup year.

I suspect that the England coach might have had some issues with the player which were not directly linked to his playing abilities

There have been plenty of comparatively slow half-backs in Test history (not sure I'd place Darren Lockyer among them) but any comparison between Wally Lewis and Kevin Sinfield as test stand-offs should probably end about there.



And in your opinion Wigan massively downgraded when they replaced Leuluai and Finch with Smith and Green but that didn't appear to stop the Cherry and Whites improving to do the double in 2013 with the inferior players collection the individual MOTM accolades in the respective finals.

Danny Brough has so far led his second level Scotland to a win against Tonga and the USA while also taking a point off Italy - which is more than can be said for McNamara's England led by Sinfield during the WC warm-up game at Salford, in a game where McNamara somewhat ironically bemoaned 'I just think our mentality was really wrong for this game.'



It's highly unlikely to affect the result given Scotland's second level status while playing the reigning World champions but I'll still expect to see Brough take on and offer a running threat to the Kiwi's defensive line which will be sadly absent the following week from Sinfield if England meet New Zealand in the semi-final.

That's fair comment. I can appreciate that Brough was faced with a difficult choice. It doesn't change the fact that the decision he made was effectively to abandon the England cause.

Except, of course, you know, those weeks when it mattered, like the playoffs and the cup, just as has always been the case.

Brough IMO outplayed Sinfield on every occasion they faced each other in 2013 - including a game that should matter a great deal to both in the Challenge Cup.

8th March 2013 - Leeds 8 - 32 Huddersfield (Sinfield and Brough at stand-off)

11th May 2013 - Huddersfield 24 - 8 Leeds (Brough and Sinfield at stand-off)

The away game at Huddersfield in June Sinfield missed with a damaged thumb but again Leeds couldn't contain Brough who engineered the 40 - 18 Huddersfield win.

So to summarise:

The comparative ability of one individual player versus another can be defined solely by the results of their teams. Ergo, Ian Kirke is better than Tony Puletua.

The comparative merits of one poster's opinions versus another can be defined by how well they did in a prediction competition on an internet messageboard.

The world according to tvoc.

You said Brough outplayed his "opponents" more or less "on a weekly basis". I pointed out that he didn't do so in the games that mattered.

Why are you now just referring to two specific games and one specific opponent?

That, in my reading, amounts to the player telling the coach "you have the chance to select me. But if you don't pick me next time, no more second chances." Players shouldn't (in my opinion) be giving international coaches "first refusal" on their services. Do you think that's OK?

Brough's response to not getting picked mid-season should have been to roll his sleeves up and play his way into the team. He did subsequently play well enough to make his point, and made himself almost impossible not to pick. Sadly he had already chosen to make his point in another way and withdraw his services.

That, in my opinion, is not the sortt of player you want in the trenches with you in a World Cup, as much as in pure playing ability terms he would have been the strongest option.

The key point is that he was overlooked in world cup year, but not for the world cup. He took himself out of that equation. Which makes the point about whether we'd be a stronger team if he played a moot one doesn't it?

How is this even a discussion?

Both are players of immense talent and vision, both have great kicking games and one has a bit more pace than the other, but not so much pace that it should be considered a huge asset. The guy lacking pace, however, has ten years of being the best captain and on field organiser in the league, a proven leader of men, excellent decision maker and better when the chips are down than just about any other player these isles have to offer.

So who do you really want leading England around the park at a World Cup? The guy who's a bit faster and a bit more flashy, but has ultimately failed to rise to the big occasion throughout his generally inconsistent career or one of the most consistent players SL has seen and the coolest head in the business?

Sinfield is controlling this team in a way I simply don't believe Brough is capable of, he has their respect in a way I don't think Brough could have, and if you genuinely believe that lacking a little bit of pace is more important than the multitude of things that Sinfield brings to this team then you either have an agenda or a lack of understanding.

Glad it not just me that thinks thats the case.

Gilder, the prediction comp is just for fun.

Perhaps you'll enter a selection next season?



As I said I believe he did outplay his opponent more or less on a weekly basis from what I saw of Huddersfield in 2013 as he steered his team to, for them, unheard of heights of consistency and justifiably IMO earned selection in the SL Dream Team while also taking out the Man Of Steel along the way and yet seemingly didn't do enough to represent his country of birth in a home World Cup at that season's end.

The use of the Leeds - Huddersfield games in this context put him head to head with one of his rivals for an England shirt (and one of the subjects of this thread) and that included a game that you said 'those weeks when it mattered, like the playoffs and the cup.' That was a contest he led his team to win and they did so despite being down to twelve men for the final twenty.

If you have any examples of Sinfield (or Chase) getting the better of Brough in 2013 perhaps you could add them here:

?