Well thats one way of looking at it. But there is another way.

If you grade the three 'pots' of silver ware available

The Grand final would be placed first, the Challenge Cup second and the lead leaders third.

So each of the three coaches won 2 championships and and 1 World Club Challenge so evens there. That leaves Brian McDermott's Challenge Cup win to trump the other two's lead leaders trophies! And the clear winner for trophies is....... Big Mac

What also should be taken into consideration is that Smith and Bluey had the core players younger faster and at their peak and in addition Ali, Ellis and Webb as world class players at their peak too.

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Bluey did it in only 3 seasons

IIRC the context of my post was to answer a specific question asked rather than looking at anything one way or the other.



In your opinion perhaps but considering the fact that Leeds have won twelve Challenge Cups to seven League Leaders Shields they have seemingly found the LLS considerably more difficult to come by. Perhaps unsurprisingly as one is the reward for consistency over very many games while the other is a reward over comparatively few with potentially some uneven contests (lower league opponents) along the journey.



And my equally subjective view is that Championships feel more merited when accompanied by a League Leaders Shield - reward for consistency over the full course of the season and the ability to also win in the cauldron of knock-out football. A high placed finish was also a pre-requisite during Smith's tenure under the six team play-off format.



Yes sadly at Leeds the standards have been allowed to slip and the buck stops with those in high office off the field and with the head coach for matters on it. Since the Manchester weekend Leeds have produced relegation form and that needs to be addressed - no distractions - otherwise the final few home games of 2015 could even be spent outside the elite.

The Leeds CEO has not given the present coach all the tools he could have (and IMO operates well within the cap limits a club this size should be happy and willing to maximise) but equally the coach has not always used the tools he has been given wisely either, quite often barely using some and on too many occasions not using some tools at all.

The Leeds CEO has not given the present coach all the tools he could have (and IMO operates well within the cap limits a club this size should be happy and willing to maximise) but equally the coach has not always used the tools he has been given wisely either, quite often barely using some and on too many occasions not using some tools at all.

brilliantly put

True but as I said he took over a side at the peak of form with the 'golden generation' players 7 years younger than they are now and with the other great advantages of a world class attacking full back (Webb) and world class back rowers in Ellis and Ali at their best. Despite this he did not win the 2nd best trophy on offer ie; the Challenge Cup. Whereas Mac has achieved this with patched up ageing stars in a lesser squad.

IMO one of the main reasons our attack has suffered when compared with earlier years is the above points. Hardaker is a good full back on his day but lacks the class of Webb who used to join the line at speed in the standoff position and create the space particularly on the left side for so many of our tries. Hardaker makes good metres but his game is based on the physical rather than the creative. Ali was unique and combined with Ellis and Sinfield at 13 we could open up most defences. BM has not had these advantages and so his ability to have still produced the silverware should not be diminished.

On one hand we should commend BMcD for achieving silverware with "ageing stars", 7 years past their peak but on the other hand he should be criticised for having a squad full of ageing stars, 7 years past their peak.

This would be fair comment if the Leeds coach were fully responsible for recruitment. IMO GH has controlled recruitment and the purse string for many years now.

It should also be recorded that Leeds (& GH) under BM's tenure has had the disadvantage of a lack of recruitment opportunities from the NRL that previous coaches enjoyed due to the raised cap down-under - neither has the academy produced some out and out world class youngsters as they did in previous years.

JC- Is this Coach culpable for anything that hasn't worked?
You blame GH for recruitment & retention yet MC picked Moore ,Aiton ,Griffin ,Vickery etc although Moon was a very good signing!
On the pitch you forever defend the Coach and blame the players for executing his game plans when it goes t!t$ up but he is a tactical genius when we win!
Then using 15 players & not having an assistant is a breath of fresh air and tactical nous!
Fair points about his success' & of course the ageing squad but lets be fair he has got plenty wrong not least with squad management.

Where have I said that BM never gets anything wrong? He is on record for admitting some mistakes. However on a forum that includes so many in the anti McDermott camp who have been proven to be wrong on so many occasions I have never felt the need to join this particular flock of sheep.

What I have consistently done is to question some of the critics who IMO seek to blame the coach when it is so obviously the players who are making the errors. BM has proven he can motivate the team and make a good game plan. The players were able to follow this for the first half of the season and were top of the table. They were also able to follow this and win the Challenge Cup which Smith and McClennan were unable to do by the way.

What the players were unable to do in the second half of the season was maintain their form, the same defensive game plan and a low number of errors which BM wanted. This was very disappointing and most of the squad were poor in the 2nd half of the year so it is not as though he could have made different selections.

It is no coincidence that 2 of our back 3 featured in the top 10 SL players who made the most errors (and all 3 in the top 20 error makers) This must have led to a lose of points at both ends of the field. Saints, Cas Warrington and Huddersfield had no error makers in the top 10. Saints none in the top 30, Warrington none in the top 20 and Huddersfield and Cas just one each in the top 20. I maintain that it was player errors that cost us the majority of losses.

I did not blame GH for recruitment. I pointed out that IMO he is the one who makes these decisions and not Mac as some were blaming. I also made the valid point that during BM's term as coach GH has not had the same choice of recruiting from the NRL as in previous years.

You forever blame the coach and not the players when we have lost a match. If you look back to many of our losses they were down to individual mistakes by players that cost us victory in most cases by a very small margin. What can any coach do about that from the touchline particularly when the mistakes have come from some of his best players.

With regard to not using all his subs equally or not having a 'name' assistant, I agree these are matters that it is fair to question. However it is also fair to say that these points are subjective and not proven that therefore can equally be said to be irrelevant. BM is hardly blessed with reserves who are match winners so he had to stick with his ageing stars.

IMO it would be great to sign a top class controlling half back but who is available? I am not sure either that we have the balance right in the backs. Too many of the them rely on strength rather than subtle creativity. IMO BJB would possibly have scored more tries than Briscoe and Sinfield so long the driving force behind Leeds was for much of the season a shadow of his former self. He looks to me to have his mind on some off the field problems as his concentration and decision making have been most untypical as it did not look like his stamina was letting him down.

The loss of Burrow brought about our slump in form and he did not look fully fit once he had returned and the rotation policy did not prevent the players running out of steam after the Cup final.

Then isn't it mcdermott's job to eradicate the errors in training or drop players that continue to make the errors?

The team and coach have played a risky game, IMO, for several years. If you perform somewhat scratchily for much of the season then you have to justify (or gloss over, for those who put it that way) all that at the end of the season. Send the punters home happy in the end, and much of what came before will be forgotten (I know what my abiding memory of 2011 and 2012 will be). The ends can be seen to justify the means.

Without those ends the means obviously become harder to justify.

Happily, we do have a nice big shiny trophy in 2014. That will be my abiding memory. So the whimper at the end of the season isn't a massive problem for me. My memory of it will fade pretty quickly.

My concern is what that form might hint at as our fate for 2015. And I am more concerned than I have been since 2006. Obviously 2007 turned out alright though.

How confident do we all feel that essentially the same squad that effected the 06/07 turn around can do it again 8 years later? My answer is: not very.

Quote Juan Cornetto="Juan Cornetto" It is no coincidence that 2 of our back 3 featured in the top 10 SL players who made the most errors (and all 3 in the top 20 error makers) '" Where has this come from? Presumably it's not from this : www.superleague.co.uk/stats/player_stats Quote Juan Cornetto="Juan Cornetto" Saints, Cas Warrington and Huddersfield had no error makers in the top 10. '" And that would be significant because ..... ? Especially given that Leeds made what appears to be only one more error than Warrington and a handful more than Castleford over the Regular Rounds according to this : www.superleague.co.uk/stats/club_stats Quote Juan Cornetto="Juan Cornetto"Saints none in the top 30, Warrington none in the top 20 and Huddersfield and Cas just one each in the top 20.'" And even if true that would be significant because ....... ? Quote Juan Cornetto="Juan Cornetto" I maintain that it was =#FF0000player errors that cost us the majority of losses.'" Are these the type of player errors quantified by Opta that you appear to be referencing above? Are you saying that when Leeds lose it's because they make more errors than their opponents? If you are do the Opta stats back your 'majority' claim in 2014?

Quote Juan Cornetto="Juan Cornetto" It is no coincidence that 2 of our back 3 featured in the top 10 SL players who made the most errors (and all 3 in the top 20 error makers) '" Where has this come from? Presumably it's not from this : www.superleague.co.uk/stats/player_stats Quote Juan Cornetto="Juan Cornetto" Saints, Cas Warrington and Huddersfield had no error makers in the top 10. '" And that would be significant because ..... ? Especially given that Leeds made what appears to be only one more error than Warrington and a handful more than Castleford over the Regular Rounds according to this : www.superleague.co.uk/stats/club_stats Quote Juan Cornetto="Juan Cornetto"Saints none in the top 30, Warrington none in the top 20 and Huddersfield and Cas just one each in the top 20.'" And even if true that would be significant because ....... ? Quote Juan Cornetto="Juan Cornetto" I maintain that it was =#FF0000player errors that cost us the majority of losses.'" Are these the type of player errors quantified by Opta that you appear to be referencing above? Are you saying that when Leeds lose it's because they make more errors than their opponents? If you are do the Opta stats back your 'majority' claim in 2014?