Think the issue is being too conservative against the top teams (even after knowing Saints missing men McDermott still said Leeds were underdogs which I don't think anyone else would believe). Something similar happened vs Wire when we should've scored more points but weren't adventurous or create enough in the final 20 even though we got there enough times.

After some batterings against the top teams in his first few years and issues with not getting field position because we weren't going down the middle I think he'd changed his approach and instead of the trying to score off every set kinda approach we're seeing a play for field position, grind it out approach.....which does have some merits at certain parts of a match. But you also need to do something a bit extra to get past the better teams try line.

We just need to be not too respectful to the top sides and go into our shells so much.

We certainly had more than enough ball and field position to post more than 10 points.Ultimately, our forwards did their job by getting us in the right areas often enough and defended well through the middle.Its down to the halves to bring the backline into play and they didnt do that at any time really that i can recall.It all looked dis -jointed with no real creativity at all. Either Burrow would dart at the line, Sinfield would hit a forward with a crash ball or McGuire would run up his own backside trying the dummy, step and go that teams read like a book these days since he lost his pace.

I recall highlighting something along these lines towards the end of the 2013 regular season. Whilst some were just constantly on about the forwards I said what the 2013 season had really shown us is that one of the golden trio had to make way (at least to the bench) because we were making enough yards and made enough visits to the opposition 20 to score more points than we actually did.

I think Aiton has been a good addition this year and was a important loss for us on Friday. Also with Hardaker improving as a creative FB then it's not all gloom on that front going forward.

Aiton has looked a very good bit of business so far and i do think he could have made all the difference on Friday. Burrow had a good game as an individual on the night but we do seem more balanced and less one dimensional as a team with Aiton on the pitch.

I wouldn't worry too much this year.
Leeds are still one of the best teams in the comp and it wouldn't surprise me if they win the gf AGAIN.
I think every saints player knew Leeds where favourites to everyone including the majority of saints fans and went uo there with a point to prove.
Leeds can easily raise their game and beat anyone in te league.
That said. I thought before the first super league game saints where favourites and now I'm more confident they will win gf, ccf or both

There is an argument that it would be better to keep ‘plan b’ under wraps at this stage of the season than throw it out there in what was, regardless of who we were playing, a run of the mill regular season game. ‘Plan A’ has worked pretty well, we have had a good start to the season, and if we can continue to put the lesser teams away and stay with the top teams (I think before the start of the season, everyone would have accepted 1 loss, a win v Wire and a draw with Hudds at this stage of the year) then we would probably see a ‘plan B’ when it was necessary.

In my view the disappointing thing wasn’t the lack of a ‘plan B’ or the lack of McDermott making some big tactical or positional change it was the lack of general creativity and structure in our game. The Forwards dominated the Saints forwards, they set a platform and we should have taken advantage of it. Saints defensive line hung back a bit and gave up lots of little battles to win wars and our halves, looked completely devoid of any real ideas to stamp authority. Our 2nd phase play was appalling, Watkins, even though he is still making a few silly mistakes, ran riot over on his side, he made 3 or 4 clean breaks and got his hands free numerous times, but we had no-one following up, We are lacking any sort of speed in our follow up play, and we are lacking structure and creativity from the halves. Hardaker isn’t Tomkins, he isn’t Webb, he isn’t running of set plays and he isn’t spreading the play from third receiver. He should have been on the fringes of every drive from the forwards, and he should be on the centres inside every time it goes wide. Mcguire Circa 2004 would have had an absolute field day in that game but he has lost that speed. Hardaker should spend this season learning everything he can about support play from him.

Well said

I think it was unfortunate that McGuire got that Rugby gods injury at Wigan a few years ago and not been the same since.He was in a good vein of form at that time

Love him or hate him McDermott has a tough job on his hands. Some big names with big egos who need to start to make way. Will be interesting to see how it's handled

Never really understand when people talk about ''plan a and plan b''.

Presumably, someones 'plan a' will be to get on top of the opposition, give few penalties away, make few mistakes, convert this to points and win the game.

Pretty crazy stuff.

What do you think Mcdermott's 'plan A' has been so far this season? And does anyone care to speculate about what his 'Plan B' could possibly entail?

I talked about it previously but in the games against the top teams I think the plan is to grind out a win. I get the feeling against those teams we're content with getting a repeat set or 2 points if they commit an offence when we visit their 20m.

In the games vs Widnes, Catalans, HKR we had a period were we stepped on the accelerator and stormed away, in the games vs Wire and Saints we had chances to step on the gas but (as with some games vs top teams last year) seemed to keep the foot hovering over the brake peddle.

Granted more caution and doing the basics right against the best teams is vital but also you need to produce something a bit extra for a certain period in the match to get points past them. We saw it in the 2012 CC Semi vs Wigan and the GF vs Wire where you move it about more and get your points, since then against the top teams it just seems to be a bit too much 'up the jumper'.

I don't think we're talking about a literal 'Plan B', but to generally try something different when the game-plan he's instigated is not working. During the Saints he had the opportunity and resources to change round the 1/2's and 3/4's to 'mix it up' a bit, but he didn't. He stuck to his game-plan.

In certain situations this can be exactly what you need the team to do but I don't think last Friday was one of them and BMcD missed the call. No-one is infallible and IMO BMcD made the wrong call against Saints and you're right, most of this season he's been spot on, just not on this occasion.

I think you're underestimating the amount of analysis that goes into a game plan. I would imagine that plan A centres around identifying weaknesses in players or structures and how to exploit them. Also, how to get the max impact from your top players. THis is done with video analysis of the oppositions previous games.

In terms of PLan B I would expect the coach to see that something isn't working, and look at what he can do to change that. For me, stuff not changing is either the coach doesn't see that the game isn't going to plan, or that he doesn't have a plan B.

As has been pointed out by several posters - the game plan was working, in that it gave Leeds plenty of good field positions, repeat sets and sufficient opportunities to win the game. So it was not the fault of the game plan. What happened on the night was a combination of poor finishing, poor kicking and poor option taking which has to be the fault of the players. This was further compounded by some tremendous defence from Saints and not just not just on their own line.

From the moment early in the game when Hardaker was smashed by Wellans his attacking threat was made ineffective on his kick returns and he just didn't get into the 2nd standoff position at the right times to create outside space as he has been doing so far this season. Watkins too was allowed to run into a defensive net so although he made tackle busts he never made a clean break or created scoring opportunities. We were also below par in our half backs with both looking pedestrian, poor kicking and again taking wrong options.

Yet we were still in a position to either draw or win the game with 3 or 4 minutes left on the clock. So few would have bet against Leeds achieving that given our history. So I can understand BM backing his players to do it. However I would have used BJB at FB as his extra pace might have made the all important break.

However in the end it was a great last minute try that won the game for the Saints.

I think the critics are disappointed because they had so many reserves in the side and therefore it was a match we were expected to win - some believed by a cricket score! As it turned out their first choices could not have played better - with a solid defence, very good kicking game, few errors and smart attacking plays. But that is what is so attractive about sport - it is so unpredictable. So although a loss for Leeds it was a victory for Rugby League.

The forwards half of the gameplan worked. I'm not sure the back part did. Bringing BJB and moving HArdaker could have made the difference and added some extra cutting edge