3 super league titles, 2 challenge cups, a league leaders shield, a world club challenge and 3 challenge cup finals isnt going backwards.

Blowing it up and starting again everytime you have a tough time doesnt get you success, it gets you Whelan era Wigan.

Our spine for next season is far from being sorted. Hardaker may/may not return and even if he does we've no idea if it will be the 2015 or 2016 model. Segeyaro will leave if he gets the call from the NRL, leaving us in exactly the same position before we signed Falloon. Halfback is just a bit of a mess.

If we're lucky and get Hardaker 2015 and Segeyaro and maybe a steady playmaker like Soward we look well set. The downside is ugly though.

If we don't get those positions locked down with quality players it really doesn't matter too much what the rest of the squad looks like on paper. We've just had a season with a team full of players experienced in winning competitions reduced to an absolute rabble with issues in those positions.

Everything was in place to achieve that success. Everything is not in place now to repeat that success. As I said anyone who thinks we have not gone backwards in every structure within the club under McDermotts reign is naive. Trophy's as shown are a short term measurement, challenging is a longer term. It is done Job now for this club to be pulled back to that status. Hetherington should also take his responsibility, as he oversaw it, just as he got credit for the success bit which he started.

2 players/leaders who were almost impossible to replace retired at the same time. In a salary capped sport I doubt there's any coach in the world who could sustain success year upon year. Be realistic!

Anyone who thinks we are a top 4 side that's been a bit unlucky with injuries etc. is fooling themselves. Those early season performances (not just results) showed how poor a team we were. No structure, leadership or cohesion across the team with the ball and shambolic, often gultless defence - particularly in the middle - without it. The nature of many of our losses indicates that Leeds finished exactly where they should have finished in the league table. The way we played made good players look awful and exposed ordinary and unfit members of the squad for what many already knew they were - passengers. What really disappointed me this season though were the excuses trotted out by those at the club. The victim culture where circumstances had made things difficult. I must have heard "with all the things we've been through" rolled out during every interview. It's not what anyone wants to hear and it gives an excuse for terrible individual and team performances.
You also have to wonder what the hell is going on with youth development, how desperately have we needed a hooker for the last few years - even with Aiton at the club we needed a hooker as he was hardly ever healthy, why haven't we managed to produce anyone who can defend in the middle and work dummy half? Is there any strategy in place to supply the club with first team players it needs or has everyone given up trying?

We have some very good players, what we haven't got is a way of putting that talent into a team performance because the good players we have are not those who create stuff and make it all work as 13 men. We knew we were going to lose our 6 our 9 and our pack leader, the effect of that has been to expose the coaches abilities for what they are and the limitations of some of the forwards. Then our MOS decides to step down rather than step up.

It's simple, we're not very good at the moment. Expecting things to change without doing anything is remedial. We talk as if injuries won't be an issue next season, when Delaney, McGuire, JJB, Ablett, Burrow will all be one older. Stevie Ward hasn't come back yet - this is very worrying and Segeyaro is not actually guaranteed to stay. We could very easily be in exactly the same position squad wise next season.

Poor youth development, not running an A team and developing replacements or options for key positions can be laid at the door of GH, I think he does have to take some responsibility. But if we approach next season with the attitude that this year was just a "blip" based on beating a massively under strength Wigan team and Hull late in this season then prepare for more crap dished up. If it's not completely obvious that McD has run his course at Leeds (and I thought that after the GF last October), then the people who make decisions at the club need to rejoin reality.

BM was a perfect fit for the last few years. someone who doesn't over coach, like wane, and who was prepared to let his team play what was in front of them without restricting them. you can't argue with what he won.
however we now need a rebuild and the side needs structure, shape and leadership and I don't think he's the right coach for that. not criticising his ability just the kind of coach he is

That's how I see it. I thought he should have looked to step down (or up), at the end of last season. Although I'm not sure him being at the club in an alternative role would have worked with a new coach, but that may be not giving him credit, it could work really well.

Nonsense. If you are sacrificing success as a short-term measurement and focusing on challenging long term. You arent going to be in your job for very long.

That you think these systems and structures have been shown to be going backwards over the last 5 years, despite huge success is just crazy. The fact is that the past 6 years of success arent undone by this years struggle. That can never be taken away. It is proof positive of a system working. It is unarguable, indelible, incontrovertible proof that what we were doing works.

That some think this should have been changed or sacrificed on the promise of jam tomorrow is sporting naivete writ large.

exactly, we have a bad 17 games coming off a tough, but very successful season, we lost 3 big characters and two RL legends, we had a disrupted off and pre season. and introduced a lot of youngsters who got game time.

And even then we managed to get only 4 points less than Les Catalans did last year, 6 points less than Hull did, and 8 points less than Wire.

How many grand finals will Leeds have reached in the last four years when this season is up?

I would suggest McDermott inherited a good side but has failed to develop the squad and 2015 was a blip in a downward spiral that has continued this season.

The squad isn't strong enough because the youth structure isn't producing the quality it should - that is down to McDermott who is in charge of all things coaching

It will be on 1 grand final, 1 lls and 2 challenge cup wins. Which is a pretty good return, especially when we remember you specifically cherry picked that time frame to be as bad as it could be.

That's why they get paid the big bucks - to make the correct decisions - at the end of this season Leeds will have reached one GF in four seasons is that really good enough for a club the size of Leeds?

In the last 4 seasons leeds have won 4 trophies. Would I take the same ratio over the next 4 seasons? Yes.

Why do people always switch the goal posts to suit their argument. If leeds had made 4 grand finals over the last 4 years and won none you wouldn't be on here crowing about how many grand final they'd made you'd be saying ''leeds have won no grand finals over the last years, is that really good enough for a club the size of leeds?''

Wigan and saints have both contested more grand final than leeds over the last 20 years.

But who has won more titles? Leeds.

Can you answer my question please from the bottom of page 6? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you at this moment in time BTW, so don't get defensive and dodge the question by getting me to justify how they haven't gone backwards. You said they have gone backwards in all structures.

Please justify that comment with some more detail. what structures? how are they worse?

The thing thrown against McDermott for his first few GF wins around 2013 on here was that it wasn't his squad and some said they'd only give him credit and say it was his team if he won post 2014 (some did, some didn't). Whilst the likes of Sinfield, Peacock, McGuire etc. kept going the squad changed a lot and we had 7 first time Grand Finalists in the 17 that won in 2015 which is a lot of change by Leeds' terms.

From the end of McClennen's reign we've seen

Webb - Hardaker
Donald - BJB - Briscoe
Senior - Moon
Bailey, Kirke, Burgess - Cuthbertson, Garbutt, Singleton
Smith/Delaney at centre - Watkins
Lauitiiti - Ward

So he had to do quite a bit of change actually to the squad which got the treble from when he first started and GH hasn't exactly been as adventurous with his recruitment as he was around the mid 00's with the likes of Lautiiti, Webb, Peacock, Ellis. Some of that not helped obviously by the strength of the SC in the NRL.




When did he actually take over all things coaching though and wouldn't you agree it would then take time to see the changes in how much youth is coming through.