Weller Hauraki could and should have been a very good signing for Leeds but for whatever reason McDermott was unable to get the performance out of him that he had shown at Celtic and he continues to display now at Castleford. On Sunday he threw a one handed try-assisting pass that Lauitiiti in his prime would have been proud of.

Think Hauraki suits being the bigger fish in a smaller pond.

Only your anti-McDermott agenda would lead you to that conclusion. What I said was quite clear.

Brian McDermott was an excellent assistant coach with his contribution to Tony Smith's success in gaining promotion at Huddersfield and when he came with Smith to Leeds he played a big part in our important Championship success in 2004, the WCC in 2005 and a Grand Final appearance in 2005. Smith was named super league coach of the year in 2005 which also must reflect well on McDermott's contribution.



Smith was the coach when Hudderfield were relegated and I believe he still holds the record for a coach managing to keep his job after 13 consecutive defeats. As I said earlier McDermott joined Smith and assisted in gaining promotion.

When McDermott left Leeds for London in July 2006 Leeds form dropped off noticably with, I think, 4 defeats on the trott and a disappointing end to the season being knocked out in the prelim playoffs. No coincidence IMO.



You choose to allow Smith three coaching positions as proof of achievement (two of which crucially he had McDermott as assistant coach) and ignore his poor record with Japan and England and his failure to win a Championship so far at Warrington in five attempts? Whereas McDermott achieved Championship success and Cup Final appearances and a WCC win in his first two years.

McDermott had a difficult time in London as did Smith in his first year at Huddersfield. Most successful people have experienced a lack of success or even some failure in their careers before they earn their success. Indeed this can make them stronger. It must be wonderful for you to have never needed this experience in your own perfect and successful career tvoc.

However McDermott's lack of resources in London cannot be compared fairly with free spending Warrington. But fairness is not your stock in trade when pursuing one of your agendas is it?

Despite his overall lack of success in London McDermott did show his coaching skills as he got them into 4th position in June 2009 with good wins against both Leeds and Warrington. In the final part of this season they dropped down the table but this was I am sure dure to the lack of strength in depth.

McDermott also achieved some success in London in developing young players like McCarthy-Scarsbrook and our own BJB

Now you also made a point of saying McDermott took over a set of Champion players. Did we win the Championship in 2010? I must have missed that!

McDermott in fact took over an ex-champions side with many of the key players past their peak who had performed well below par under the previous coach in 2010. A season which was less succesfull than the 2013 season - which you have been deriding. He took over key players that were on the long term injured list with others badly out of form. Yet he managed to turn the season around and gain an historic Championship victory from 5th place. To repeat this in his second season shows both his metal and his coaching skills.

McDermott has not had the advantage of many top star signings either



As I have shown you Smith's legacy at two clubs in in part also McDermott's legacy too. Is it five seasons at Warrington without winning a Championship despite heavy recuitment? Whereas McDermott has won 2 Championships in 3 years with key players older and slower than in the Smith era.

I rate Smith as a good coach and I like the way he gets his teams to play. But you should not devalue McDermott's achievements at both Huddersfield and Leeds while assistant coach nor should you underrate his achiements as head coach at Leeds. Make no mistake he is also a very good coach.

I find that comparing coaches from different seasons is a bit futile really. No two seasons are alike in terms of opposition squads, our own squad, injuries, rule interpretations.

From my point of view the right coaches were brought in at that time. POwell was needed to start the transition from underperforming to being challengers with potential.

Smith took a promising team, and introduced better structures, and tactics and installed a sense of belief, whihc saw them champions. By the 4th season it had become stale and best all round when smith moved on. The GF win in his last game probably took him from being a successful coach that leeds fans will always be grateful to, to being a legendary coach who won not one but 2 titles which has deserted us for 3 decades before.

The squad knew how to play, and what their strengths were, they needed someone who would keep them fresh, and up for the challenge despite their recent success. Delivered results in silverware, though cracks started to appear in year 3, and with the poor end to the year was replaced. I think the appointment of McDermott was required for both a change in focus, but also to get a stricter regime in place. I always got the impression that the senior players ran the team with bluey just pepping them up to get the best out of them. McDermott was brought in to re-intrduce structure and order to things, whilst also seeing the transition of players like Webb, Senior and Ali from the team.

I have not always agreed with everything any of the coahces has done, but I can see they have all added something to the club, and done a pretty good job.

Remember, there have only been 4 years in the last decade where we haven't been champions. And 11 trophies in that time.

However, I agree with the above poster that having the same coach for a long time is not a great idea. I get the feeling that we should be due for a change. Not because McDermott is doing anything particularly wrong (even if I disagree with some approaches), but because to move forward you have to adapt and keep things fresh.

Good and fair points JC/Eagle.
Whoever came in after Bluey had one of if not the hardest tasks of ALL previous Coaches in that the squad needed to be re-inventing/updating.
What really gets me with our current Coach is how well he has achieved the transition within the back line including over-seeing the arrivals of Moon ,Hardaker and Briscoe but the Pack still remain imo the area in need.
Now to go into further detail Mc.D signed Moore and Griffin gave Amors departure the go ahead and re-signed Kirke and Leuleui.
That imo was wrong all across the board his selections of players clearly injured is verging on the ridiculous and again certain players are picked irrespective of form not just over a couple of games either months at a time.
I've no problem admitting i got it wrong during hsi first season and how he got us performing for back to back GF's and to reach Wembley demand and deserve respect and gratitude but there's still plenty that can and needs to be improved which he is firmly in control of.
Even now lookiing ahead whether it is Mc or someone else they have a hell of a job over-seeing the eventual departures of Sinfield ,JP ,Mags,JJb and Burrow but i think the work should have started in the pack alreadyso when we do lose JP and Jjb that impact is lessened to a certain extent yet at the moment we are still carrying Kylie and Kirke and the enigma that is Bailey.
We could easily see out the year and win the GF it wouldn't surprise me at all and the team are certainly capable of doing it but what then?
I just hope we aren't scratching around trying to replace 2 x Props ,1 BR & one of the golden triangle all at once.

Yeah it did help being given a quality NRL winger in Marcus Bai, he dropped Cummings for all of 2 games and he then featured in 21 of the remaining 26 league games (even being selected on the bench a couple of times).



Until we lost both 2005 finals, got knocked out by mid table teams in both comps 2006 and dropped back to 3rd even behind Hull, got knocked out of the 2007 CC by a mid table team and only nicked 2nd from Bradford courtesy of the Tansey Magic Weekend Try which if disallowed would've seen him have to attempt to win from 3rd, a very different prospect then for the legacy cementing 2nd GF win.

He did improve results versus Bradford. However at the end of 2004 we finished the season 15pts clear of Saints yet over the next three years they picked up 6 titles to our 2. Even Hull who we were 10pts clear of in 2004 had overhauled us by 2006.

McDermott has gotten stick for getting knocked out of the CC at the 5th Round stage this year but at least he got knocked out by a team who finished 1st in the SL table. Likewise his 2 final defeats came against the team who finished 2nd that year in the table. Smith got knocked out by the teams who finished 5th (2004 & 2005), 6th (2007) and when Hudds beat us in 2006 they placed NINTH in the table and had no big game experience under their belt at that time. McClennen got bettered by the teams finishing 1st (200icon_cool.gif 2nd(2009) and 3rd (2010).

Likewise for McDermott (and McClennen) missing out on the GF, well at least he got beat by the team that went on to win it and at least reach the Qualifying Semi to be 80 mins away from Old Trafford.
The only time in the last 11 seasons we haven't been at least 80 mins away from Old Trafford is when Smith got us knocked out by 6th placed Wire in the first week of the playoffs (again a team lacking in recent big game experience).

Saints had been so good over the previous 2 years heading into the 2007 GF (even managing the rarity of winning Sports Personality Team of the Year in 2006) and became the team the beat and fear (the role many thought we had taken hold of after 2004, but let slip so easily) that they we plenty of people doubting whether we could catch them and beat them, many thought not.



Do people care them nights McDermott has won at Old Trafford, no. But it didn't stop some of his detractors telling us "it's papering over the cracks" all the time.

Personally I don't think referring back to the 32 year gap for the title strengthens Smith's achievement. He, like any coach, should be judged for what he did in his years. For what he did in 2004, not what others failed to do in 1994, 1984 or 1974. I can understand it meaning more to fans who endured it, but weighing his achievements as a coach heavier because of others previous failures doesn't sit with me.

I would disagree that once a big club has fallen on hard times its a hard monkey to get of the back. Before it was constantly the year of the wolf, it was always the year of the rhino.

I agree Eagle the 3 decades + of under-achievemant ,over-spending on "superstars" and nearly going under should never be under-estimated.

Yes for the fans it may have always been year of the rhino again and again....but it wasn't for Tony Smith, fresh in, no baggage of failure, no several years of thinking "is this my year", likewise nearly all his squad. They'd had a near miss the year before but most teams need that before getting the big one (see Wire and Hudds now, and Wigan fell just short 3 years in a row before 2010).

At times during that 32 years sure there was hard times but I wouldn't say at that particular point we were on hard times. The squad was looking as exciting as it had done for a long time, the club had actually gotten one monkey off their backs with the 99 CC.

If failure of previous coaches added pressure to Smith's job, was it any greater than the pressure McClennen or McDermott felt with having to keep success up? Look at Moyes at Man Utd, even Dean Lance after Graham Murray shows success of one coach doesn't mean the next one will keep it going.


Smith's success as a coach in 2004 (not what it meant as a fan, as that is a different thing and understandable) should be based solely on what he achieved in a little over 32 weeks of action that year, not what others did (or didn't do) in the previous 32 years.

Pretty much everything you posted here is contradictory or just plain wrong.

Define "rapidly west"? Do you mean finishing second in the league table (after leading for much of the year), being 60 seconds away from winning the CC and narrowly defeated in the GF by a salary cap cheating Bulls team which rocked out with a pack containing JP, Fielden in his prime and Adrian Morely amongst others. All after losing the most potent attacking player in the league for the business end.

How can we have been "inconsistent" yet finished 1st, 2nd, and 2nd in three of his 4 years in charge and reached 3 Grand Finals? You've fallen into the Whinos trap of only believing we were successful because everyone else was rubbish. Really, you actually believe that the Saints team that won everything in 2006 was not competition for any other season? And that the Bulls faded away to nothing after their domination up to 2003?

"Things only recovered weeks before Smith was leaving"? What nonsense. We topped the table in 2007 for a good proportion of the season and competed head to head with the 2006 all conquering Saints team for the entire year (beating them twice in the regular season) and only missed out on top spot by a single point to them. Then we finished the job with a thumping of both Saints and Wigan to lift the Championship.

It's a salary capped sport - no team has won everything every year since the days of Wigan and Mo's big wallet.

There's rose tinted specs and then there are brown tinted specs - and the brown stuff isn't chocolate sauce.

Coaches can only be criticised, because they can only fail. Unless you win every game you have failed as a coach. Win one Championship and failure is to not win every Championship. Smith won with Powell's team, Bluey won with Smith's team and McD won with Bluey's team. Do you have any idea how f****g stupid that sounds? How can you give credit to a coach for building a winning team but not give them credit for winning with it themselves?

Then we get the "nobody will clriticise Smith" brigade. Well, he did make mistakes - there is no human in history who hasn't - definitely no sporting coach that's for sure - so that's hardly a bombshell is it? Smith turned Leeds into a consistently competitive Rugby League team with a realistic chance of winning trophies - something we hadn't been for 30 years. It's something we have maintained for 6 seasons since his departure. And it isn't because everyone else suddenly turned c**p.

spot on.the real measure of all the coaches and players we have had during this great period for the club will probably not come to the fore for a few more years yet.we are still in the midst of our glory period, albeit probably the back end now so its still a bit early to measure the real greatness of particular people during the period.

a few barron years later and we will all look back and will appreciate things a little bit more how they should be I feel.one thing is certain I feel, tony smith will be right up there at the top when talking about figure heads of this great period for the club.

Who is Cumings?

If you're referring to Francis Cummins he wasn't dropped for two 1st grade games - it was for one. As I said, IMO it was Tony Smith's quite deliberate message to the players and the fans - no more room for sentimentality. It was a stroke of genius even if it flew over some heads.

Cummins was and I imagine still is a good fella but he'd been allowed to steal a living at Headingley for too long and was emblematic of some of the issues surrounding the club pre Smith.

_____



So using your own terms what did Smith achieve with Leeds in 2004 after leaving aside their first Championship in 32 years ?

Leeds finished the Regular Rounds in 1st place - nine points clear of the rest (a SL record that still stands) having lost only twice (equaling another SL record) - they finished the Regular Rounds with the best attack and the best defence.

Ignore the 32 year wait all you want (perhaps easier to do when you haven't endured it personally) - there was more to the impact and improvement under Smith than just ending the wait.

You're right about what he and the team achieved in 2004, it was great and I'm not saying it wasn't. So their is no need to sweeten it even more with comparisons to the failures of the previous 32 years.....it doesn't need it.

I would have Tony Smith back here in a heartbeat. Without a second's hesitation. He's a Great coach and his record speaks for itself.

Smith, Bluey and Mac have all done some excellent things. They also all done thing I didn't agree with.

Comparing their achievements is difficult. For league consistency Smith was the best but I'd argue he possibly had a younger, slightly hungrier squad. 2004 and 2005 are the best I remember us playing over a long period-I'd argue the rugby pre Seniors injury in 2005 was better than 2004. Powell had undoubtedly laid some great foundations and I believe he would have got us over the line eventually. Smith however certainly improved some standards and small things at the club. The signing of Bai and Lauitiiti should also not be overlooked. Bai in particular was the first winger at the club for a long time who could actually dominate physical exchanges and bust tackles returning the ball. At the time we were sadly lacking this sort of player. In 2007, despite what he'd achieved I was glad smith was leaving. I thought he made stranger selection decisions throughout his tenure and in my opinion we needed a change.

Bluey was a great motivator. He continued the success however I don't think many will argue that out structures over his 3 years in charge became less efficient. He had that ability however to raise players for big games which suited this squad well.
Again though, when it was announced he was leaving, I remember being pleased.

Mac has had more criticism than either of the above. Is some of it justified? Yes probably. Is some of it ridiculous? Definitely. He has led leeds to 2 Grand Finals. Last year was slightly disappointing however out league form was much more consistent and we were unlucky to drop some points ie. magic game v Wigan. I imagine there is a focus this year on being better in the regular rounds again. Like many, I'd like to see more rotation at times. But I'm pretty sure I've said similar with both over coaches. Mac does a lot of work with the foundation and speaks very well about the club and the game. He strikes me as an honest figure who will accept his mistakes and consistently try and better himself. The players seem to genuinely love playing for him and he is well respected within the club and amongst his peers.

All 3 will be fondly remembered in time I imagine. Can we draw a line under the petty point scoring now and just accept that not all of is agree. After all, I still see the merits of re-signing Ian Kirke and I think I'm virtually alone in that!!!