It's on the super league site. Quite favourably actually. What it did highlight though is the more carries he makes the less metres per carry he does. Which backs up the theory of his previous stats skewed by kick returns relative to few carries.

Also highlights how the returning unfit players were key to the defeat. Missed tackles and errors from them.

Thanks

Quote: Gotcha "It's on the super league site. Quite favourably actually. What it did highlight though is the more carries he makes the less metres per carry he does. Which backs up the theory of his previous stats skewed by kick returns relative to few carries.'" Kirke (in the Regular Rounds) averaged 6.92 carries for an average of 7.32 metres gain. His lowest metres per carry (4.56 and 5.10) came in games when he made more carries than his norm (9 and 10) while his best metres per carry (13.5, 10.67 and 10.25) all came in games when he made much fewer (2, 3 and 4) and at least one of those was down to the prodigious Pat Richards drop-outs at the Etihad Stadium. Last Saturday's game at Warrington (4.73 metres averaged from 11 carries) would appear to fall into that same pattern A Kirke/Opta observation from the recent Wigan game can be found here: viewtopic.php?tsmp=1379258723&f=17&t=558195&p=17563411&sid=24c6b72c8d24993b689d9f22ee1e720d#p17563411

Quote: Gotcha "It's on the super league site. Quite favourably actually. What it did highlight though is the more carries he makes the less metres per carry he does. Which backs up the theory of his previous stats skewed by kick returns relative to few carries.'" Kirke (in the Regular Rounds) averaged 6.92 carries for an average of 7.32 metres gain. His lowest metres per carry (4.56 and 5.10) came in games when he made more carries than his norm (9 and 10) while his best metres per carry (13.5, 10.67 and 10.25) all came in games when he made much fewer (2, 3 and 4) and at least one of those was down to the prodigious Pat Richards drop-outs at the Etihad Stadium. Last Saturday's game at Warrington (4.73 metres averaged from 11 carries) would appear to fall into that same pattern A Kirke/Opta observation from the recent Wigan game can be found here: viewtopic.php?tsmp=1379258723&f=17&t=558195&p=17563411&sid=24c6b72c8d24993b689d9f22ee1e720d#p17563411

You really need to read more carefully. My point was that there is a limit to what you can do if your minutes on the field are limited. So to make judgements without knowing the minutes is unfair. This last week I guess he was on the field for longer.

That could go someway to explaining the scoreline

The following are the stats you asked for.

1) Kylie.. 6.28 m/c 44m in 7 carries
2) JP... 5.7m/c 171m in 30 carries
3) Kirke 4,72m/c 52m in 11 carries
4) Delaney 4.21m/c 59m in 14
5) Ablett 4m/c 44m in 11
6) Singo 4m/c 20m in 5
7) JJB 3.82m/c 42m in 11
Last) Bailey 3.17m/c 19m in 6

I suppose it was a coincidence (you do seem to like a coincidence) that all the other forwards were way down on their average metres per carry too. I can understand why you would wish to mention this. Perhaps your theory overlooked the very fast (and offside) charging Warrington defence on this occassion. But then like the very important minutes played stat, I bet it's also missing from the spreadsheets.

You can choose to believe this unproven theory or you could consider that all our forwards also made far less metres per carry than they normally do in this match and Kirke still had the 3rd best m/c. Would it be too far fetched to think the Warrington rushed defence and offside had anything to do with it?

My estimation was just that. My estimation. The Opta stats do not include the important minutes per match and their interchange records (like the Leeds site) are always incomplete so I only give my estimation and accept it could be wrong. That is why I argue against critical judgments made against players for a low number of carries if they have made a reasonable number of tackles in a limited time on the field.

There was a wider observation re Kirke's high and low metre per carry games which looked beyond this one encounter - that this one encounter appeared to fall in line with could be just one of those coincidences but there again it might reflect the observation that making fewer carries a game can distort the outcome. Have you analysed the legality and defensive line speeds in those other encounters also?

As for minutes - at least one of us will occasionally make an effort to ascertain some, even though it's not the one who places the biggest emphasis on it before often reaching questionable conclusions.

Quote: Juan Cornetto "My estimation was just that. My estimation. The Opta stats do not include the important minutes per match and their interchange records (like the Leeds site) are always incomplete so I only give my estimation and accept it could be wrong. That is why I argue against critical judgments made against players for a low number of carries if they have made a reasonable number of tackles in a limited time on the field.'" Then are you yourself defending without also knowing the length of a stint? Now that you hopefully do know (and to the second thanks to some helpful contributor - viewtopic.php?f=17&t=558195&tsmp=1379426559&start=55) how long Kirke played at Wigan are you standing by your judgement of his effort in that game - which included the novel 'you can't make tackles on defence and be expected to carry the ball in on attack when you're a prop' , it's just that you haven't returned to the thread in question almost as if you are trying to avoid it - and I know that won't be the case here.

Quote: Juan Cornetto "My estimation was just that. My estimation. The Opta stats do not include the important minutes per match and their interchange records (like the Leeds site) are always incomplete so I only give my estimation and accept it could be wrong. That is why I argue against critical judgments made against players for a low number of carries if they have made a reasonable number of tackles in a limited time on the field.'" Then are you yourself defending without also knowing the length of a stint? Now that you hopefully do know (and to the second thanks to some helpful contributor - viewtopic.php?f=17&t=558195&tsmp=1379426559&start=55) how long Kirke played at Wigan are you standing by your judgement of his effort in that game - which included the novel 'you can't make tackles on defence and be expected to carry the ball in on attack when you're a prop' , it's just that you haven't returned to the thread in question almost as if you are trying to avoid it - and I know that won't be the case here.

Your wider observation, over whatever period, is equally flawed for the same reason I gave earlier.. If you choose to take a narrow view without taking into consideration other key factors then your judgements will always be flaky.

In the days when you were happy to cut and paste the opta stats I asked on several occassion for the minutes played without which the other stats have lesser value. Only on rare occassions did you produce the minutes played and understandably only for televised matches. Statistics are a tool to provide management information to assist in decision making and assessing performance. Without the full set of stats which the clubs subsribe for we are all just expressing personal opinions based on limited information, hence I tend to play devil's advocate against the critics.

I am suprised that as a hobbiest keeper of records you have not seen the importance of the minutes played stat without which much of your other records are somewhat meaningless.

I an not one of the ones making critical attacks without knowing the time on the field which is my point.



I still do not know the minutes for Kirke. Are you asking me to accept your numbers when when I know your judgement to to be flaky.

Those rare occasions at least being an improvement on what Opta provide without subscription then. If the stats only provide limited information (which I agree they do) why do you use them and insist on calling them 'facts' ?



The vast majority of my records have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with a minutes played stat, or carries, or tackles, or busts or any other category Opta choose to publish online. I record these only as a comparatively recent addition (since 200icon_cool.gif but only because they are available.

As long as they're listed week by week I'll record them but if they weren't there I wouldn't lose a second of sleep over it.

My initial interest was to highlight the frequent errors such as mistaking Ian Kirke for Rob Burrow in relation to a 40

Numbers or judgement?

Kirke played a stint at Wigan that began when he replaced Leuluai at 18 minutes and 57 seconds (according to the Sky in-game clock), he ended the first half still on and started the second half the same until being replaced by Singleton at 53 minutes and 10 seconds. A stint of 34 minutes and 13 seconds - Fact - he replaced a prop - Fact - he made 3 carries in that game - Fact.

Your avoidance of replying to my post on that thread will have been noted

tad rhino replied

And tad was right it was at least 15 - in reality we should all now be able to accept it was many more than this

and your next offering was