The CEO appears to have let the squad strength decline for too long..........we've had a great run though some would say have had fortune on our side maybe the last couple of years.

All in all Vickery is simply not good enough at Super League level and should not be near a first team shirt! The recruitment has been very poor and the squad is getting older.

We need to start to slowly intergrate new/younger players through the squad instead of mass wholesale changes in a short period.

What did Hall do wrong in that situation?

Hull had easily worked a four on one overlap once Heremaia was positioned on the outside of Moon, leaving only the Leeds starting hooker facing the Hull scrum half, full-back, centre and winger, with the Leeds winger having to scramble back up to the defensive line as he had started the play in the correct position anticipating the early (4th tackle) kick. Hall's presence actually forced McDonnell inside which should have been meat and drink to Leeds' inside cover but Moon had initially been caught almost static (ball watching) as the inside defenders were drifting he only drifted late, he then oversped and was easily beaten back on the inside as McDonnell cut running behind two other Hull players in the process - if only there had been a video ref available it might have been interesting.

So what could Hall do any different to what he did?



Agreed on Hardaker pretty poor commitment on the chase for some reason, did something similar V Huddersfield where that time he dived too early when he would have had Cudjoe for pace had he stayed on his feet. Vickery made great ground on Crooks but didn't appear to quite know what to do when he got there so IMO backed off half a yard around ten metres out and did nothing until it was too late. That's not to imply he was in any way to blame for that score after Jones-Buchanan had been slow to react to the Lineham breakaway. Jones-Buchanan isn't challenging for the ball so he has to be alert to back-up a Leeds possession of defend a Hull one.



What did McShane do wrong for the Houghton try? Worse defensively than what?

McShane lost possession but he at least was trying to promote the ball having tied in Westerman, O'Donnell and Pitts in an attacking situation - good work by Ben Galea preventing the pass. The possession was then turned over 90 metres from the Leeds tryline - so if you're going to turn the ball over at least that was a comparatively safe area to do so.

The Vickery play - in the first instance he should have taken the ball on the full. Even then he could have easily reached the ten metre line or therebouts before surrendering in a tackle. You need to secure possession at that end of the field moreso than at the opposite end IMO - easier to defend a set in the opposition half than ending one in your own quarter. I think the reason he didn't choose to hit the ball straight back-up was eleven minutes earlier he had fielded another kick and returned it to around seven metres out but because he didn't get low and find the ground he was driven back and in truth it was perhaps a fortuitous decision from Child that allowed him to get up and play the ball just in front of the line. The lateral run was simply the most inept play I've seen attempted since Martin Offiah did something similar in an 'A' team game at Headingley just after he switched codes. Offiah could run but boy was he clueless to begin with in his League career. By the end of Vickery's dash he was actually heading back towards his own line making the Hull defenders job even easier.



How did Bailey give possession away?

Not so critical - are we assessing criticism by degrees now? Perhaps Bailey has built up some credit along the way. I can't recall which thread that was, how I left it or if you responded - which would have been the place to do so perhaps rather than here - but didn't I say Bailey and Jones-Buchanan should concentrate on rugby rather than amateur dramatics? A fairly critical observation?



I can give you examples of ten games where he's done precious little positive of note either offensively or defensively. Filling a shirt while offering little to justify his selection or his place in Leeds' 1st grade squad of 25 or the CEO's claim that he is one of a new triumvirate of 'terrific talents who add extra strike and quality to our team.' Yet to be entirely convinced by the other two but at least they've shown glimpses of there being something potentially to work with. Interestingly Moon started brightly but is now starting to show the effects of being in the Leeds set-up and far from providing quality service to his quality winger - Hall has only troubled the scorers once in his last eight games.



I had seen nothing and knew nothing of Achurch and Vickery before seeing them turn out for Leeds, I assumed the CEO perhaps was better informed and was speaking with some knowledge when he described them as 'terrific talents' - thus far they've hidden them well. Perhaps he was misquoted?

The CEO has provided his coach with a barely adequate squad for 2013 (while claiming it to be his best ever) - quality rich but numerically poor - vulnerable to a spate of injuries which sadly given the ever increasing ages of the old guard was quite likely to occur. A depleted squad without a recognised hooker, at least not one that has the full confidence of the coach which is resulting in muddle in the middle, a lack of consistent defence around the ruck area and players forced into making hero defensive plays. When Leeds attack in the opposing twenty you don't expect a score but when Leeds defend in their own red zone it feels almost inevitable.

Not sure where to apportion the blame for Leeds worst run of results since Tony Smith's dark season. The CEO hasn't supplied the manpower but at the same time the coach isn't utilising what he's got, IMO.

The CEO hasn't supplied the manpower but at the same time the coach isn't utilising what he's got, IMO.'"

Brilliant post tvoc
Couldn't have put it better myself .not joking I really couldn't ha
I wonder how McDermotts time at leeds will be remembered with the passage of time ?
Innovater / legend / tactical genius /
None of the above

Can't believe anybody can still defend the selection of Vickery.......if the coach still does so then seriously he should be sacked despite my suggestion made elsewhere.

If nothing else it makes a complete mockery of having an academy team.

Vickery is not the only player who has been poor, I think that is the issue. You replace wing, who is next on the hit list?

Vickery has been pretty terrible since he arrived, but that's not the reason we are on this losing streak.

It all starts (or ends) at 9. The hooker should be calling the forwards onto the ball at pace, something we don't do, and without this direct forward momentm everything else becomes rushed or panic football. The ball from dummy half needs to be crisp to the forwards, or halfbacks who then have the time to execute a planned play, but we don't have this either. For a long time we have pretty much relied on a piece of individual brilliance to make a break, rather than structure and movement off the ball, and as the players become older and slower this brilliance becomes less likely.

Regardless of the silverware we have won over the last years, look at Wigan who are constantly threatening with their style of play. Their problem has been the quality of player they have had, not the way they play the game.

We need to play from a bit deeper with the forwards, bringing them onto the ball, solve the problem at 9 so we get quick accurate service, then the other players will immediately look a lot better.

Wingers are icing on the cake, not the cake itself...

This thread is not blaming Vickery for the four losses. Tvoc's post is spot on.

The only reason Vickery will play next week is because McDermott has signed him and chosen him as his first choice after BJB and will never admit he is wrong. Once McDermott has decided who he likes and dislikes, he doesn't change his opinion. McShane should be the starting 9 and Vickery should be nowhere near the team.

Juan comparing Vickery's appalling play to Hall's error is extremely daft. Hall getting trapped in his in goal was down to a good fast kick. Vickery's run was ridiculous, did he think the tryline was the touchline? Vickery is not safe under the kick, he is not safe once he retrieves the kick, he has no speed, no power and his positional play and defence is poor but apart from that he's a good player.

I agree with Batley - partly because I've said it before, but also because its so basic that I think it sometimes gets overlooked. Brad Fittler said exactly the same thing on TV this morning - without accurate quick passing from acting half you'll always struggle to score tries.

Burrow can be very dangerous from acting half, but his passing from there is not consistently up to scratch. That causes receivers to have to watch the ball they get far more closely, which slows them down - even when the ball is half decent, never mind misdirected.

As for Vickery, I don't have a problem with him being dropped. I'd say he's had enough chances now - far more than others before him in fact. But scapegoating him when players who can do much better are playing just as badly is missing the point.

Despite the rhetoric of Juan and a couple of others, nobody that I've noticed is claiming that Leeds's problems are down to Vickery. I'm sure everyone on this board wishes him well even if they have no confidence that he'll do well. However the fact that he's in the team can be seen as a symptom of Leeds's problems (dwindling quality of recruitment, questionable selections and tactics over the regular season), rather than the cause of it, and I think that's how it's been called. He's not been scapegoated, he's just been judged.

Those with longer memories will shudder to recall Mark Wilkes and Rex Terp, backpackers who chanced their way into a Leeds lineup. The difference there was that 1) Leeds were a semi-pro club playing in front of 6k gates with dirt-cheap tickets, and 2) It was clear after one game to anyone who'd watched Rugby before that Terp and Wilkes were nowhere near top-league standard and they were never seen again. Joe Vickery has somehow played 10 times. This isn't his fault, but it is *someone's* fault and really shouldn't be happening at a club like Leeds.

Vickery is the equivalent of a people carrier in a formula 1 race

I wouldn't go that far.

Renault once put an F1 engine in an Espace.

Great amount of bullying on this thread from lots of folk who have never played the game, he's a backup winger, doing his best which hey might not be enough.

If it ain't then out illustrious coach has a decision to make!!

TBH you might find that most of the folk who post on here have actually played the game - some to a very high standard indeed.

Agree let's leave the lad alone now
I'm e at my job too but don't have a forum reminding me all the time