I was at all those games. My non participation in big games for Leeds has produced startling results. As I won't be there for this final it raises Leeds chances considerably. 50-50.

For me, and I can only speak for me, there should be no more 4 carry games all year barring an injury. He's used his quota of such laziness up by some distance.

I'd have thought the minimum we should expect, absolute minimum, is 6 carries from a prop who doesn't leave the field injured. That shouldn't be cause for rejoice, just a minimum expected work rate.

His display drew praise from me.
I repeat, he drew praise from me.
He didn't.


I haven't seen the stats but your comparison is flawed on a number of levels. He didn't play 80 mins. He was playing centre not prop. He was playing with half of his face hanging off. Was Sunday an aberration for Ablett (in terms of hit ups or below his usual work rate (maybe due to the facial injury?).

He is. Do you think Kirke is a better player than Carl Ablett? Is that seriously what you're saying?

I repeat, I praised Kirke's display. You're the guy who started a thread thinking 8 carries (or is it 7) from a prop is a big deal. It's better than what he usually does (and I commented elsewhere that the quality of his carries) but would it have been thread worthy in itself had his past work rate been so appallingly lacking?

OK then, thank you for that reply.

On Sunday he exceeded that minimum standard by 33%





While tempering the praise with more of the above which tends to imply the praise is a little disingenuous despite the number of carries being comfortably in excess of the minimum standard you have finally set out above.



I specifically used the example of Ablett from Sunday as your views on the two players are well known to forum regulars. The comparison (as Ablett is a centre these days) was more with Watkins but I agree it was flawed as it was based on a false assumption that he had played the full eighty. Outside backs at Leeds generally do and as he had clearly stayed on after the 21st minute clash of heads and started the 2nd half with the missed opportunity to score I'd missed him leaving the field on 52 minutes to be replaced by Delaney.



I didn't think it was a big deal as such but I did think it was a good effort for the time he was out on the pitch and in the absence of the weekly Opta thread felt some others might still like to comment.

Are 8 carries better than what he usually does? When I calculated the average number of carries he has made per SL Regular Round game this season the arithmetic mean and median figure was (IIRC) 7, so yes 8 is better but I'd suggest only a marginal improvement over his average.

Having detailed to the minute and second (should anyone still having access to the recording wish to confirm for themselves) using the on screen BBC timings - each of Kirke's carries I stand by my assessment of eight carries rather than accepting Opta's reported figure at face value. Given that in 2009 Kirke was (and still is) credited with a 40/20 which actually came off the boot of Rob Burrow I'm still inclined to believe what I see rather than what I'm told to believe by people who on occasions have been known to mix up one of the tallest players in SL with the smallest.

The only question now is which player received the credit for Kirke's 22 meter drop-out return in the 35th minute?

It would seem so.

Yes. Quite, so 8 is more than he usually does, if you accept that the median figure of 7 is what he "usually" does. It could be argued 4 is what he usually does as you produced figures that show he makes 4 carries in a game much more than he makes any other number of carries. As we're talking about an actual player making actual drives that might be a better indicator rather than a median. It's rugby not maths I'll remind you. It's nearly 15%. Sounds a lot more when you use percentages doesn't it, especially when the figures are in single figures? Of Course, if 4 is what he "usually" does it's 100% better.
As I have no intention to check I'll take you on face value, as I do with Opta. But people make mistakes don't they, even statisticians,

Given you didn't see Delaney replace Ablett I am impressed with your self belief.

I can't wait to find out.

Yes it certainly would.



You had your chance previously to state which arithmetic method you would be using. Perhaps you should have said then it would be the mode? As the mean and median produce a higher (consistent) figure it's arguable they give a fairer reflection but thems the breaks.

Personally I'm inclined to use the 'mean' especially at this point in the season where highs and lows, variable game minutes, in game injuries etc can be smoothed out over the course of 21 appearances.




Given this week's example with Kirke you perhaps have to question whether those '4' counts are 100% accurate also.

The timings are there to the second, they were all Ian Kirke drives and there were eight of them in total (excluding a ninth drive that ended with the knock on.) Such an individual service is not offered by Opta unfortunately but whether people accept those precise proveable examples or go with the 'Kirke kicked a 40/20 in 2009' brigade is entirely up to them in this and any other instance.

I like my statistics to be accurate (pretty pointless if they're not) but no human can ever guarantee absolute accuracy and it's possible I make the odd mistake as well. Kirke did make eight drives though on Sunday.

I wasn't particularly watching for or attempting to record the substitutions on Sunday. I like to watch the game for it's own sake and for my own records it only matters whether the substitutes get on to the field at some point of the match. The four subs did - Ablett started and as he was replaced at some point by Delaney (who also started) I must have missed it but there again I wasn't looking out for it so I'll forgive myself .... just this once.

That's the problem with this country. Too many liberal do-gooders.

How very dare you!

I've been called some things in my time but there's a limit.

If you like seeing statistical errors, the Rhinos' website is right up there with the best. Some of it looks like it was put together as a school project.

a prop should make at least 15 carries when starting the game and 10 when they are not. 5 and 6 carries is'nt a fantastic work rate for someone who gets at least 30 minutes of game time in fact its poor kirke should be looking to take at least 2 a set i can't recall him ever doing this. for a giant of a man he runs the ball in like someone half his size.

Agree 100%. I've waited a few years now for him to develop into a natural replacement for JP. But sadly their respective application on the field is at opposite ends of the scale. If you could only "bottle" JP's attitude (that almost single-handedly won the Bulls the 2005 GF) and got Kirkey to drink some...