Burgess slightly worse, Diskin markedly better this year.

I refer you to my noble colleagues statistics provided above.

Up to his final season Smith kept the penalties lower than his predecessor not something Mclennan has ever been able to manage.

2007 was very wide of Smith's previous three seasons whereas both Mclennans seasons have been far too high and higher than Smith's worse season.

Dress it up all you like but its' clear discipline is far worse under Mclennan than it was under Smith.

If he stays and he continues to fail with the issue then one wonders what the figures will look like in Mclennan'sennan's fourth year in charge.

A valid point Loz

Yes, lower than his predecessor's final season (not necessarily Powell's best or even average return though)



The team was already becoming less disciplined under Smith, McClennan has managed to slow that trend although he hasn't managed to halt the increases as yet.



If the current trend continues in year three and four under McClennan the rate should reduce to around 7.58 compared to Smith's final return of 7.33. He may need a fifth season to return a figure below Smith's final season at Leeds.

Fingers crossed eh?

Even if our levels are similar to last year,maybe other teams have improved theirs and why we are the second worst.

After this weekend its back to worst.

Taking that point though, the number of penalties per season (for all clubs combined) has varied by a huge amount. So...

...this is the percentage of penalties conceded by Leeds, of all penalties awarded in the season:

2003 8.80%
2004 7.29%
2005 6.98%
2006 6.71%
2007 7.80%
2008 8.23%
2009 8.65%

I wonder how any of that would compare to Graham Murray's Leeds?

There seems a general assumption that penalties should be eradicated but there's a reasonable case to say that penalties are the price you pay for contesting the ruck, being quick off the mark defensively and tackling with aggression. Its finding the balance that's key.

I doubt wether that'd be worth it there appear to be far more penalties nowadays than in murrays era.

Indeed.

The major flaw with Puig Aubert's attempts to cloud the obvious with statistics is it doesn't show whether Leeds were winning or losing the penalty count and that is the key.

If leeds averaged 7 penalties against a game under Smith it's not an issue if we're being awarded 15 as it means we're not giving away more territory and possession to our opponents.

What we do know, courtesy of TVOC, is that in the vast majority of games under M<clennan we have LOST the penalty count.

That is where the crunch lies not in the catual numbers.

Interesting.

Naturally, I (at least) have no agenda either way. The stats are what the stats are.

The discipline of some players has improved, for others it has got markedly worse. The stats do focus on Leeds's discipline - only half of any penalty count - as that's the area the discussion and criticism has focussed on. Unless, of course, you're suggesting that the coach should be chastised for his side not being awarded enough penalties?

There are some who have forcefully proclaimed that the high penalty count is caused by the current coach; others have unwittingly and amusingly followed in their wake; and others have simply chastised him for not solving the problem even if they recognise it probably wasnt of his making.

Of course you can interpret the stats however you wish but it would seem rather disengenuous to chastise the coach for apparently not trying to solve the discipline problem when a number of his charges seem to have curbed [itheir [/ipenalties so well.

2008: I only have penalty counts for 29 of the 35 games played.

Leeds - Won 11, Drawn 3, Lost 15 (Penalties received 247, Conceded 259)

2009: Complete (All Comps)

Leeds - Won 6, Drawn 4, Lost 14 (Penalties received 165, Conceded 209)

Best post on this thread

Lock IT

The point I have continually made is that this team and indeed this squad of players is more than capable of success if they could stop giving themselves mountains to climb with needless handing away possession and territory through lost penalty counts.

That we are conceding far more penalties than our opponents on such an alarmingly regular basis confirms something we have discussed about the deterioration in our relationship with referees.

Winning the penalty count (and respecting possession) are massive contributory factors in winning and losing in today's super league.

The self serving statistics you showed average penalties per game didn't look half as alarming or give the true picture as TVOC's statistics showing penalty counts lost.

How you're going to persue your agenda of defending the indefensible in light of this I await with baited breath.