Are those stats for teams or just forwards? How do our stats look when you take Hardaker/Briscoe/Hall kick returns and first drives out?

Even if our stats turn out to be ok we look more likely to score from 60 yards out than 20, something which probably has got worse in the second half of the season with our new-found tactic of drilling the ball into touch whenever we get into an attacking position.

For the team as a whole, but like I said, the backs for the other Top 6 have hardly been slouches themselves now have they. And even if we rely more on our back 3, we still must be getting down field enough if we're comfortably the top metre maker.....so something is wrong in executing field position to points. An issue I pointed out well over 12 months ago but was shot down with just typical cries of "the team's too old and past it".

and the coach still hasn't addressed it.

McDermott OUT

Reckon he's reached/reaching his shelf life at Leeds but an off-season change isn't likely.

Whilst winning trophies means he deserves more respect than the look-down-their-nose abuse some continuously give him on here, both previous coaches won titles and it was right to move on from them.

As a off season change is unlikely then a key addition to the coaching staff is the thing I look forward to.

Four years is a good stint, time for some fresh ideas - particularly on attack. I think we also need a new approach to player retention and development, I think some of our coaches values are getting in the way of making decisions that are needed.

It's been a good season overall, the cup win was awesome, and no easy run to get there either, but I am totally hacked off with our approach to the regular season. McD seems to be a one trick pony - under achieve, develop siege mentality, exploit underdog status, hope the great players we gave drag us through several playoff games. What a total waste that early season form was.

But I don't think we are getting in good field position. Our back 3's excellent returns and work rates get us up-field away from our try line but I don't see us camped on the oppositions try-line very often.
We don't get quick enough play the balls, because we're too heavily reliant on 2 props.
When we get those play the balls, we look dangerous. When we don't we look slow and ponderous.

I don't think our halves have been brilliant this season by any means, but I don't think they're the major issue. Get some forwards in who'll actually take it forward with energy and our halves and threequarters will flourish. Like they did early this season.
Until we do that we'll rely on Peacock and Leuluai to roll us forward. We have second rowers (Delaney & JJB) trying to do props work. That should only be when we have injuries, not a regular occurrence because our 3rd & 4th props aren't doing anything like enough.

As big a Sinny fan as i am, I think he shares the blame with Briscoe, why didn't he take the ball up himself, if he stays in the field of play great lets have another forward do the same, if he gets pushed back over the try line we waste another 30 od seconds and the ball ends up 50 yard from our line. Just my opinion, didn't think we deserved to win anyway, but at least make them score a try not gift one to them.

We have to be able to score from further out than right on the opponents line. In fact we convert goaline pressure very poorly, partly because we don't have a 9 who can crash over from short range (McShane was actually very good at this).
I have always thought that good attacking sides are more dangerous from 20 to 40 metres out. We are not a good attacking side, we certainly under perform with the talent that we have and I don't think that has anything to do with props.

In hindsight, yes

But if he gets pushed back for the drop out he gets slated for not passing (remember he could only run one way due to being so close to the side).......had he run and stayed in play them the same issue would've applied to the next play. It was a run of the mill play and it wasn't a bad pass at all......it was simply a Briscoe c**k up, but he wasn't the only one to c**k up before anyone complains.

You can't do 5 drives from dummy half from your corner flag and expect to get away, at least one pass is needed, note one simple pass (which is what it was) it wasn't some over-elaborate play.

See I still think it does, because I think we're poor at attacking because our play the balls are often too slow.

In my opinion the lack of decent 3rd & 4th props contributing decent workloads and quality play leads to second rowers trying to do that work instead. Leading to fewer support runs and slower play the balls. Which means our backs are having to attack a set defence with little support.

Don't get me wrong I don't think our halves have been good enough for most of this season (in my opinion they haven't adapted well enough when under pressure) but I still think the main problem is in the forwards.
The starting lineup for Leeds, I think, is very good:
8. Leuluai
9. Aiton/Burrow
10. Peacock
11. JJB
12. Ablett
13. Delaney

But the players to come on from the bench just don't bring anything like enough. And, in my opinion, Leuluai should be coming off the bench like we did when McDermott was coming to the end of his career.

I happened to see the 2005 WCC again recently and it struck me how much more potent and impact our bench had then compared to now, especially in the forwards.
2005
14. Burrow
15. McDermott
16. Poching
17. Lauitiiti

2014
14. Aiton
15. Bailey
16. Achurch
17. Sutcliffe

The bench usually plays so very little minutes you can't really point towards them as going wrong when on the field.

DHM - I tend to agree a bit more with Him, as I wouldn't underestimate the role of power forwards in setting up attacking play. A blockbusting forward hitting the line draws in defenders and provides options for the next play that simply don't exist if a forward plods into the line then gets manhandled into a slow PTB. I don't think Leeds have a single forward who decent opposition are genuinely scared could score a try through sheer power if they drop their guard.

Halfbacks need time and space to work in. Thurston looked as hopeless as anybody when the Cowboys were getting pummelled in the first half on friday. As soon as his forwards got parity he began to run the whole show and the whole team looked miles better.

I'm not saying Sinfield and McGuire have been great, but IMO some of the issues Leeds have in attack have been around for a long time - too many chiefs (sometimes we have three halfbacks plus a hooker on the field) and not enough out-and-out power in the forwards.

Peacock helps hide this due to his massive workrate - but I agree with the Eagle (I think) who suggest that when he's gone the whole structure of the front row will have to be addressed.

I also think we need to stop the messing around with Burrow and AN Other at hooker. If Burrow is to be hooker, start him there and put a bigger player on the bench. If he's not breaking games open from the bench then there's zero point him being there either. Given the fact that his distribution from dummy half is pretty poor, I'd say its time to move him back into scrum half.

To be frank, Leeds are now entering a very difficult period, and I don't envy whichever coach is there. I do thoink changes have to be made though, and its probably time that messages were sent to the senior players not retiring next year that coasting is no longer good enough.

I reckon the bench plays few minutes because they don't offer much and it's seen as better to have a knackered Peacock on the pitch than a fresh Kirke or Bailey. So Peacock is on for as long as is absolutely possible.

I know it can be a bit of a vicious circle in that as they only get few minutes it's more difficult to shine, but too often I see Kirke or Bailey come on to spell Peacock or Leuluai and they make no impact whatsoever. I could understand if they came on and were defensive workhorses, but they're not. Neither are excellent in defence, Bailey in particular is poor in this area. So they offer very little.

That has been typical of his season - his decision making has been very poor compared to his usual high standard in that regard. I wonder if what happened in the world cup has impacted his confidence - he definitely hasn't been anything like the player this season that he has been in previous seasons

At the start of the season Leeds were on fire. Burrow & McGuire in the halves working off the back of a decent pack. It all went a bit pear shaped when Burrow got injured.

Peacock & Leuluai will do one more season. McGuire needs to have a really good pre-season as he looks really out of shape.

I reckon Burrow will move on for 2015. He had a deal to go to Cas for 2014 all squared off until McDermott gave him the half back spot ahead of Sinfield. Don't be surprised if he moves there to finish at his home town club.

The end of season fade out was all to do with the determination to win the CC. Once that was done, the older players had the monkey off their back & the focus on winning the GF, which was unlikely, was not as strong as perhaps it should have been.

Briscoe has been a bit disappointing. Very much a confidence player who doesn't seem to believe in or back himself.