Leon has won as many GF's as DM (including a Harry Sunderland against Leeds which DM hasn't picked up) and won 5 challenge cups to DM's 0 (including a Lance Todd). He's also played 6 when we've beaten Australia in their Sydney back yard.

Not sure why you would bring Leon into a discussion about Leeds looking disorganised against 12 men, but there you go.

As I pointed out on the VT Leon won his HS playing on the wing, not stand off. Noble knew he didn't have the mettle to organise a team which is why he played him there giving him freedom to drift in and out of the game. It was also Noble's belief that Leon couldn't play 6 that led to him joining you.

Not sure why you would base your opinion on McGuire solely on Saturday's game rather than the couple of hundred odd others but there you go.

Given Brian Noble picked him at 6 in a game GB won in Sydney, then moved him away from that position for the rest of the tournament (losses) - his opinion as to Leon's ability at 6 is questionable at best.



I'm not basing my opinion on Saturday's game, it just highlighted the issue again. If you re-read my post - I actually said that if you swap McGuire OR Burrow for an organising half in that game, Leeds would win comfortably. Not just DM. Leeds played dumb rugby with little direction from half back - that's just my opinion.

DM is having a cracking season, and if you read any of my England team posts I have him in there at 6, I'm just saying that with a bit more structure Saturday would have been a cake walk.

OK, fair enough. My opinion was that, like last week, it was more to do with the forwards. Burrow and McGuire actually won that game for us. Burrow with his break that led to McGuire's try and his lovely cut out pass to Donald and McGuire with his two pieces of individual brilliance. They did it with little or no support from their forwards. As a result I don't think Briers would have made a jot of difference and, given he lacks the skills McGuire and Burrow do to break down a defence on their own, we may have actually lost.

I think that is fair enough but I don't think the lack of structure is their fault. I think there's a coaching issue and a less dominant pack issue. We're in agreement about the effect but it would appear not the cause.

G1 -I agree.

How can you expect our half backs to perform and organise when the team was all over the place the forwards we had out look shattered and nobody was putting their hands up.Most points through out the game we had Hall and Smith running the ball in.

The half backs performed well under the circumstances if they had played behind a strong pack we would have ripped Hull apart.

To be fair though, there have been similar issues earlier in the year with a strong pack - hence Leeds struggling to clinch 4th spot.

Anyway, was only my observation - I think Leeds are a top prop and an organising half away from being unbeatable in SL (and yes, I know you've done OK without them recently!! )

McGuire has made more rlerrorsrl than any other SL player this season.

To me that just shows how involved he's tried to get.

Funny how its that majority of the go to guys who are on that list too. Think that proves my point.

The error-ridden elements of frailty in his natural game and style of play is multiplied to the n'th disastrous degree against the Aussies and Kiwis at international level against the world's best players, so it's hardly surprising he's often been one of the weakest links for England.

Tony Smith was correct in finally dropping him from the team, albeit way too late. He should have been axed after the World Cup.

Even more of a cross man than Brian Noble.

Indeed. As much as he's a great player for Leeds you can't afford to make regular errors against the Aussies and Kiwis and that is where McGuire has let himself down in the past. He's just too high risk to be first choice stand-off. Admittedly he's also had several good games for GB/England but I think in fairness that Tomkins offers more at international level (fewer errors, tougher with a similarly strong attacking game). Sorry if this upsets people but I think it is all too easy for Leeds fans to overlook McGuire's flaws.

Pryce is an interesting one. No doubt he has the ability and physical attributes to be the best player in SL, he's just too inconsistent.

Agreed. It's what happens in a GB or England shirt that concerns me and how players perform at that level.

It seems we're a dying breed. Fans these days seem to care more about what players have done in their particular clubs colours like Blue and Amber than what they've actually done (or more significantly, failed to do) in internationals. Sad really.

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Right on both points.

McGuire is the main reason we are in 4th spot and our victory against Hull was down to both our half backs who still turned it around despite our pack failing to master the depleted Hull forwards.

If we all focused on what players have done in GB/England jerseys we'd be miserable downtrodden fekkers like you because GB/England have not done a great deal these last few decades.

Anyway, evaluate Rob Burrow, man of the series for GB against the Kiwis in a series win. Share with me the high esteem with which you hold him thanks to his GB performances.