Indeed. Bloody awful really

I think this proves how much we rely on off the cuff stuff. I think it also shows how much influence the coach has. He obviously gives them a freedom to express themselves, but how much work do they do on the training pitch learning drill after drill, set play after set play? Sinfield's brain earned us many points over the years? How much input does Mac actually have? And is he being exposed since he lost a genius and a warrior whom the whole dressing room respected?

Yes i agree with all the off the cuff stuff but it stands to reason that repeat sets and building pressure is a sure way of getting over.Wigan do it to great effect, they didnt look like creating owt all first half but they took petrol out of our tank by camping on our line and hammering away until we had nothing left really in the second half. We don't look like we ever know what we want to do even on the last play in the opposition red zone the ball ends up with the likes of Cuthbertson or Hardaker when you would be expecting a half to be taking over.Simple stuff really that needs looking at.

Exactly this. There were a couple of times against Wigan that Hardaker was brought down on the last tackle ~20m out. It looked as though he was just waiting for something to happen in front of him, and then was caught with ball in hand. It shouldn't get to that point, as you said.

Does any team constantly work on set plays? I hope not, if they do then we're even further behind the NRL than I thought.

There's one reason for being hammered by the NRL sides right there. Repetition of set moves makes them work smoothly and better executed under pressure. It supposedly also makes the off the cuff stuff easier as well for some players, as their core skills are better. IIRC an Australia coach said as much when asked how they could play such entertaining stuff at times.

Its been a nonsense for years that 'off the cuff' play on its own is enough to break down the best defences.

Are you kidding? Repetition is what is needed. It makes everything else more simple, and cuts out the indecision like (surprise, surprise) we see on nearly every 6th tackle from the Rhinos.

The NRL teams don't work on set moves. They get players in the right areas and use the vision of the half/fullback/whoever to pick the right pass.
You can't have set moves because you don't know what the defence is going to do and as soon as you've done it in one or 2 games it's obselete.
When Trent Robinson was at the touch screen after the World Club game, he wasn't describing set moves, he was describing how the players get in to starting positions for a "shape" that will be thrown at the defence. Then the half/pivot/whoever will have to react to the defence's reaction to that shape.

Leeds have rarely been very structured in the same way. Taking last year, our "shape" wasn't the in the same fashion of sending several runners at 1 or 2 defenders. We obviously used offloads instead. That's clearly our aim again this season it's just we aren't getting it right. Partly due to lack of energy from not dominating oppositions like we did last season. We're sorely lacking the support runners that both help draw defenders off a hit up and are there for support of an offload. Again, partly due to lack of energy, partly a lack of leadership and partly in poor form.

I would also imagine we're currently doing a lot of training on defence since that's been so god awful.

I don't think the guys referring to set moves mean something simple like player A runs here and player B here and C passes to A and A passes to B. All patterns of play have options but they are patterns nonetheless. A set play would be that inside angle that Peacock always ran back into the hole behind the ruck. Never gets boring that one, but there would be other options set up if the dummy half saw that was covered. There will sets of six to exit from within the 20 which will be choreographed, there will be sets of six for in the opponents 20. The first few plays may simply be to set up the defence and move them around and all the time key players will be getting into position for a set attacking play. There is a structure to it all. Really great players or teams that know each other really well can modify plays as they run and work off each other. They seem to be reading each others minds and that's because they do stuff repeatedly over and over and over again in training.

Sutcliffe has had some fairly $h!tty comments leveled at him for his performance at the screen with Jon Welles after the Hudds game, but f*** that. He knew instinctively when he saw the weak shoulder of a defender overcommitting to attack it. He will learn that partially from coaches and practice, but a lot of it is instinctive. I have seen 6 year olds who have no idea what a weak shoulder is who will just know to attack it. So if you can take a player like that and then put him in a structure so he always has a play and always has an option on that play then it gives them far more confidence to act on instinct when needed.
The reverse is true though, I have seen players who can only play in a structure. They may be quick, have good hands and do what they are told but as soon as they make that break or something unusual happens they are clueless, they usually just find somebody to run into.

Agree with all that. I also don't quite know what people were expecting from Sutcliffe at the touchscreen. I thought he did alright especially for a young lad.

I just think some people are mistaking our poor performances for lack of overall structure. I think we're doing pretty much exactly what we did last season just not doing it very well and without much on-field leadership. We are playing in a very similar manner with the same "structure" just without any bite in either attack or defence.
The only place where I wish we had some more structure was on the 5th tackle. But I've wished for that for nearly every Leeds game for the last 15 years except for games in late September & October.

The ideal scenario for us this year would have been to have pretty much everyone fit (JJB and Ward unavoidable) and gradually blend in the newer guys. It would have still been a big challenge, what with the massive personalities leaving and the mental sigh of relief after winning the treble just a few weeks before. What we've had has been very different. In juries to key players like Mags, Ablett and Briscoe (the way we carry the ball out from kicks is massively different with Briscoe in the side). Not to mention the hooker that never happened. We looked imperious with Aiton fit last year, his injury changed things and contributed massively to us just squeezing out results end of season.
Had we brought some of the new guys in to a settled side then I am betting they would have gone much better. We didn't and it all looks like cr&p. It should get better, but it may not be this year.