FORUMS > Leeds Rhinos > pointless burrow/mcshane hooking arguments |
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| Quote: Juan Cornetto "Yes I seriously do! Because I believe the hooker role does not have to be sterotyped in the past. Burrow brings his own successful style to the 9 shirt and has been one of the major reasons for our good start this year and our success last year. He is posing one of the biggest threats to opposition coaches and teams and has been terrorising them so far.'"
Like I said. I gave you more credit than that.
I remember the critisism Roby got initially from oppossitions fans, about how he had changed Saints into a scoot and run from dummy half team. He did it half as many times as Burrow is doing, and was hundreds of times more successfull.
Running from dummy half from an hooker has always been an art. You time it right you catch your oppossition by surprise. Burrows turning it into one man rugby for hookers.
Annoying thing is that if he did it about 20% of what he is doing now, then he would be far more successfull with it. I guess he just does not possess the other skills that a true hooker does, hence why he plays this way only.
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| Quote: The Eagle "no doubt some good individual stats but I do worry that Burrow seems to ignore some good planned moves'"
Possibly although I am not privy to the training field moves these days. But the flexibility with Burrow starting at 9 has made Leeds tick so far and his unpredictable style is a real headache for the opposition. I am happy with what I have seen so far.
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| Quote: Gotcha "I guess he just does not possess the other skills that a true hooker does, hence why he plays this way only.'"
True hookers like, for example, Liam Hood? Who turned making a mess out of dummy half into an art form in his short spell on the field.
I want my main ball carrying threats taking on the line as often as possible, providing they aren't ignoring obvious opportunities for team mates in doing so.
Burrow's distribution out of dummy half is adequate, no worse than a whole lot of other "specialist" dummy halves in SL. He's got a nice left footed kicking game which I wish he'd use more often out of there to take some of the pressure off Sinfield and McGuire. He also just happens to be one of the quickest and most elusive players over a short distance in the entire competition, so having him at dummy half to take advantage when you win the collision is a no-brainer IMO.
The likes of Diskin, Higham etc may be more selective in when they scoot and when they don't, but I don't recall either of them creating many tries from dummy half runs deep in their own territory in big games.
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| Quote: Gotcha "Like I said. I gave you more credit than that.
I remember the critisism Roby got initially from oppossitions fans, about how he had changed Saints into a scoot and run from dummy half team. He did it half as many times as Burrow is doing, and was hundreds of times more successfull.
Running from dummy half from an hooker has always been an art. You time it right you catch your oppossition by surprise. Burrows turning it into one man rugby for hookers.
Annoying thing is that if he did it about 20% of what he is doing now, then he would be far more successfull with it. I guess he just does not possess the other skills that a true hooker does, hence why he plays this way only.'"
Well Roby is a fine player and amazing athlete and plays in his own style which can be quite predictable and good markers have a chance of making him less effective. Burrow is playing hooker as a half back and it works very effectively because of his speed and unpredictable style. I am not sure that he could be far more successful than he has been so far. But in this Leeds side we have Sinfield, Webb and McGuire able to slot in at acting half back from time to time so we have the great ability to confuse opposition game plans and that give us a great advantage.
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| Quote: Juan Cornetto "Burrow is playing hooker as a half back and it works very effectively because of his speed and unpredictable style.'"
This is the point where I have the major dissagreement with what you are saying. Warrington showed on Friday beyond doubt that the bit highlighted is not the case. He was as predictable as wet weather on the coast in November.
Like I said, by reducing the amount of times he ran substantially, IMO he would be more successfull because of it.
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| Quote: Gotcha "This is the point where I have the major dissagreement with what you are saying. Warrington showed on Friday beyond doubt that the bit highlighted is not the case. He was as predictable as wet weather on the coast in November.
Like I said, by reducing the amount of times he ran substantially, IMO he would be more successfull because of it.'"
And yet, 21 tackles bust, 3 clean breaks and over 7 metres per carry so far this season would suggest that even when defences seemingly know what's coming, it's very difficult to defend against.
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| Quote: Andy Gilder "And yet, 21 tackles bust, 3 clean breaks and over 7 metres per carry so far this season would suggest that even when defences seemingly know what's coming, it's very difficult to defend against.'"
Good point. I wonder how many of those came against a pish poor Widnes team.
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| Quote: Andy Gilder "Quote: Andy Gilder "This is the point where I have the major dissagreement with what you are saying. Warrington showed on Friday beyond doubt that the bit highlighted is not the case. He was as predictable as wet weather on the coast in November.
Like I said, by reducing the amount of times he ran substantially, IMO he would be more successfull because of it.'"
And yet, 21 tackles bust, 3 clean breaks and over 7 metres per carry so far this season would suggest that even when defences seemingly know what's coming, it's very difficult to defend against.'"
I think the average stats can be misleading. Against good teams that we will be battling for SIlverware with how well does it work? He did get MOM in the Wire and in the Wigan game was given a good individual report.
My only concern is the detrimental effect on the the structure of the rest of the team
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| Quote: Andy Gilder "And yet, 21 tackles bust, 3 clean breaks and over 7 metres per carry so far this season would suggest that even when defences seemingly know what's coming, it's very difficult to defend against.'"
It's futile Andy, Burrow is Gotcha's Peacock
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| Paul Cullen made a valid point about much pressure was put on the Warrington markers by the fact that Burrow was at acting half. There are times players can get away with a little bit of coasting at acting half, but not against particular players. Burrow's kicking game means not even on the last. I wouldn't be suprised if the scoot threat is also helping draw a few more interference penalties.
The game nowadays is almost "put your best runner at acting half"
Distribution from there doesn't need to be magical, that's needed from the halves and fullback, whilst the hooker just needs to have a long pass to a pivot or a short pass to a runner.
I suspect we'll see more teams also following our defensive structure, and not including the hooker in the middle four unit.
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| Quote: Gotcha "Good point. I wonder how many of those came against a pish poor Widnes team.'"
Seeing as you asked. Burrow had his lowest number of carries, metres and D/runs in the SL against Widnes!
(edit: NB: SL this year in case the hair splitter is lurking )
Burrow was 2nd highest metre maker against Manly with 96m and highest number of carries with 16 of those 11 D/runs. Whereas McShane made 11m in 2 carries which were also D/runs.
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| Quote: Andy Gilder "True hookers like, for example, Liam Hood? Who turned making a mess out of dummy half into an art form in his short spell on the field.Quote: Andy Gilder "'" '"
A little unfair to the player
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| Quote: Juan Cornetto "Seeing as you asked. Burrow had his lowest number of carries, metres and D/runs in the SL against Widnes!
Great. How about answering the question I asked now.
What is the obsession with carries. I asked where his tackle busts and clean breaks were achieved.
Carries is not an issue I have with Burrow at all. Him on the ball I am not suggesting is a bad thing, it's what he does that is. He could have 100 carries for all I care, as long as the majority of them he is running at the defence and then passing it on, instead of been tackled on every carry.
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| Quote: Gotcha "Great. How about answering the question I asked now.
What is the obsession with carries. I asked where his tackle busts and clean breaks were achieved.
Carries is not an issue I have with Burrow at all. Him on the ball I am not suggesting is a bad thing, it's what he does that is. He could have 100 carries for all I care, as long as the majority of them he is running at the defence and then passing it on, instead of been tackled on every carry.'"
Sorry. He made 6 tackle busts, 1 clean break, 6 D/runs against Widnes. Including Manly Burrow has made 24 Busts this year.
No obsession with carries but in comparing Burrow with more traditional hookers carries and metres are important. Roby last year topped the charts for metres, carries and d/runs. The hooker is a key creative position together with the 2 half backs and you want these three to have their hands on the ball as much as possible.
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| Quote: Juan Cornetto "Sorry. He made 6 tackle busts, 1 clean break, 6 D/runs against Widnes. Including Manly Burrow has made 24 Busts this year.
No obsession with carries but in comparing Burrow with more traditional hookers carries and metres are important. Roby last year topped the charts for metres, carries and d/runs. The hooker is a key creative position together with the 2 half backs and you want these three to have their hands on the ball as much as possible.'"
You don't mention that Roby also topped the charts for tackles. And Roby, good though he is, was outplayed in the Grand Final and in the 4 Nations by hookers whose main skills were distribution and defensive intensity. Those are still the key parts of a hooker's team game.
I worry about Leeds going this way in the big games. It didn't work last year, where we didn't beat anyone decent until Buderus started playing 80, and against the 3 good teams we've played this year we lost to Wigan, beat Manly with McShane getting good game time and making 20+ tackles, and let in soft tries to Warrington, who didn't score more because of their extraordinary amount of unforced or careless errors.
Burrow's renewed attacking spark from hooker may be enough to compensate for this, but I'm not convinced.
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