I'll cut BM slack for that loss against Quins - chalk that 100% to the attitude of the players. If they were going to play soft they should have asked BM not to play them. To be fair to him, he was undoubtedly trying to balance the requirement of not losing players through injury (how many times are players injured when playing soft though, you'd think they'd learn FFS) and keeping some momentum for next week.

As it is, the players undoubtedly made the right noises to BM about what they'd do against Quins, then simply didn't turn up on the day. That's not BM's fault - if he'd known they'd do that he would have been better served picking the Academy side and avoiding any injury risk altogether.

I don't think he's a good coach, but if we turn up at Wembley next week and win (unlikely) or lose narrowly, we need to be asking more from these guys every week. If we get hammered then its time to ask hard questions about the coaching and quality of the players.

BM may not be the only casualty if we get flogged publicly again.

Yes,but that means either the players do not respect the coach,or the coach cannot motivate the players.
Years ago when the Challenge Cup was the most important competition to win,teams would not perform the week before,but those days are long gone and there is no excuse for not performing.
Wigan did not seem to have a problem in getting up for their game,so either they have players with a more professional attitude or a better coach,probably both.
Either way we need to make changes in player or coaching personel before next season.

Whatever else, I think we have few players in this squad who have given real cause to question their professionalism.

Never include more terms in your model than are required to explain the observed effect. If we attribute poor form this season to attitude of players, do we really think the likes of Peacock, Sir Kevin, Burrow, JJB, Buderus etc have suddenly developed an attitude problem? Or do you look at a simpler explanation?

If strategy and motivation are not part of the coach's job, then why do we employ a coach at all?

Exactly

What if the players are simply not good enough - what is the coach supposed to do?

I am not saying McDermott is a mesiah, what I am saying is he is working with a very average squad.

I appreciate you're making a general point here and one I can agree with but resting Peacock and Jones-Buchanan (if that is what happened - no significant injuries) and selecting one bona-fide prop (and even then the one who usually does least minutes) was about as disrespectful to the opposition as I can remember from a Leeds coach for quite a while.

McDermott effectively gave Powell all the ammunition he needed pre-match.



Not sure Leeds did at the weekend.

Same goes for you then I presume.

Strategy and motivation aren't going to stop Brent Webb throwing forward passes or running his mouth at referees every time a decision goes against him.

It's not going to teach Kylie Leuluai how to do more than ten minutes in a spell without being gassed.

It's not going to suddenly wind the clock back and bring back the 2009 versions of Peacock, Sinfield, Burrow and McGuire - infinitely better players than their 2011 equivalents.

There have been occasions this season where I think it has been absolutely fair to question the attitude of some of the senior players, particularly in adversity.

Its true the players have not covered themselves in glory this season but there have been games where they have looked something like their old self such as Wigan home and away, Cas home and away.

Its true that the players arent the force they were. They are older, thats what happens. That said, this is still the bulk of the squad that won Grand Finals. I think to call the squad 'average' is hugely disrespectful.

What I would strongly question is Brains ability to motivate a squad that has been there and done it (albeit they have not won the CC which will hopefully mean the players are self motivated). Watch the interviews with him, head down and mumbling in a low voice about how we can still win everything this season. Do you feel motivated by him?

In 2008-09 it was the best squad in the competition.

In 2011, it isn't. By some distance.

Calling it "average" is about right IMO - how many Leeds players do you expect to see in the Dream Team or the England squad come season's end?

A fair point.

Though the dream team is about recognising individual achievement. There is prob a good chance Rangi will make the DT. Does that mean Cas have been brilliant?

No it doesnt.

Given the point was about the ability and performance of individual Leeds players, I'm not sure what Cas as a team and their performances have to do with anything. Unless you're trying to introduce an irrelevant point.

The original comment was about the squad being 'average'. I disagree.

You brought up the dream team which is about individual recognition. I simply pointed out that the good ability of a few individuals does not mean that the team is good. Ergo the inverse can be implied.

We haven't had the stand out individuals this year for a variety of reasons, but as a squad I believe we are still better than average. However, our coach is significantly below average. The net result is a mediocore league placing.

We must agree to differ - this squad is distinctly average, it has lost two options in Burgess and Cross to boot. It will finish half way down a very poor SL competition, how you can think this is all down to McDermott is beyond my comprehension. If Maguire were coaching this lot they wouldn't finish in the top 2/3 they might finish 5th at best.

This is Leeds Rhinos GH stylee - get used to it.

There's a tricky littel chestnut to unravel here isn't there?

Specifically, few players look good in a team that isn't firing. So, if you picked, say, 5 players from Leeds' first choice 17 at random and swapped them for their Wigan counterparts, how many of them would, at their current age etc, be under consideration for the Dream Team? Would Wigan be a weaker side for it? The chestnut, in short, is this: Is it the parts themselves, the sum of those parts, or both that is the source of the problem.

I won't pretend to have the answer, but I do feel that some of the big names in this Leeds squad are still far too young to be "past it" so the "sum of those parts" explanation has some appeal to me. Of course, it could be both. But between 2009 and now, is it really likely that the whole squad have simultaneously passed their prime and become average players? I don't know. I still feel that's a more complicated way to explain the dramatic loss of form than it being a question of how the collective unit is performing.

The coach (or successive coaches) are not the only variable that might affect that. They are one of them though.

Where we do agree is that the problems will not be fixed by changing the coach. I refuse to rule it out as a part of the solution though.