So if they still want to be winners, why are they heading backwards in their individual and collective development at a rate of knots if it's not through lack of application? Players don't suddenly forget how to tackle, or how to communicate in defence, yet it appears this lot have. If it's not collective attitude and desire then what is it?

His Harlequins record is about as relevant as Leeds 2007-2009 GF wins to current form, so feel free to introduce it if you think it helps you.

Andy, I am a simple man. I've seen these players do what no on else in SL has done before.

I've seen these coaches fail badly at their previous clubs. I'd be happy for you to persuade me that the coaches are not in some way to blame for the sorry state of performances. Telling me the past track record of a coach is irrelevant is not convincing me.

What is convincing me is....

"Defence will sort itself out"
"Completion rates are unimportant"
"Watch me flick this rubber glove fellas"

As I said elsewhere I don't think we're the best team in the league any more and I doubt we've the players to win it this year but my view is competent coaches could improve this team by some distance.

If you judge coaches on results, the evidence is in for Lowes and McDermott. If you judge them on improving the teams performances, the results are in.

Just what are you judging them on to conclude the current malaise is not down to them, btw?

Absolutely no question whatsoever.

There is many questions to that. It is not that simple, and my own opinion as I have repeated several times is that had Wayne Bennett been here with the same players and the same injuries, we would still be struggling for a top 4 place.

It's very simple - good coaches get more out of their team than bad coaches do.

McDermott and Lowes are bad coaches. Good coaches would do better.

The way Leeds have approached games this season reeks of bad coaching, flinging the ball around aimlessly before putting in some hard work and moving forward.

What a simplistic way of looking at it.

We had a guy coaching us who was a world cup winner and won two super league titles and a world club championship. How many other of these good coaches that you speak of have a record like that?

That same coach could only get us to sneak into fourth place last season on the last game of the season. It was a team going backwards rapidly. He saw the situation and left before his CV was effected this year.

But you still blame the new coach?

It may well turn out that McDemott is a poor coach as you put it, but that certainly is not the reason for the current Leeds situation.

Rubbish. Love to see you say that to the players.

Well said

I'm not "blaming" the new coach, I'm saying there is nothing to suggest he is a top coach and a top coach would do better; it's what top coaches do. His assistant is a proven shocker of a coach too.

They looked bizarre appointments when they happened and they are being proven to be so with every week that passes.

So what's the explanation for last year when the older players were a year younger?

I don't recall you ever looking even remotely as sh*t last year as you do this, so I don't really see your point.

Yeah the malaise is deep and credit to you Gotcha for being the most emphatic about seeing the writing on the wall.... All people are saying is we have a hopeless coach compounding the problem.

Undoubtedly a better coach would get better results....still not satisfactory maybe, but ' better '

In a way I am happy to see the present situation.... It might result in the rocket up the ass sooner. Better to have tissue paper covering the fissures rather than cardboard.

Really? So how many points did we have at this stage last season compared to this?

Make no mistake we look sh*t, that there is no doubt, and it may well pan out that the coch is not up to the job. But don't kid yourself that the players we have at the moment are what they were in 2009 and before, because they are nothing like mate.

As sh*t as we do look though, I can't remember a performance throughout the whole of last season that came anything close to the first 65 minutes we put in against Wigan. I supposse that was just down to the players though?

There's got to be some sort of balance when dishing out the blame or criticising performances.
Two things alot of fans thought/hoped would of improved under Brian Mc were discipline and defence and both are still woefull.
As for the players they could and should be producing much better but don't lok like they want to play for the coach imo and no matter how pi$$ed off they looked at FT they should look in the mirror at alot of what they've produced.
The coaches also have to shoulder some blame Gotcha i accept injuries are beyond their control and of course seasoned pros should'nt be tackling like Andy Hay or passing into the stands but there seems to be no defensive structure or switch in policy with the ball when we can all see we need to be more desperate in defence and get back to completion ,a good kicking game and basic RL before we try the fancy stuff.
I also think he should be stronger and drop the under-oerformers injuries or not even if it's only to the bench to point out that what's served up is'nt acceptable.
The u20's before fridays game were outmuscled up against a big team and did a lot of defence but showed hunger ,desire ,structure and only lost on goal kicks the head coach should have a word with Gibson and find out what he's doing right.

9

I appreciate that, I'm just talking about how the team looks like its being coached when out on the park. They quite often look an absolute shambles in defence and attack and I can't see how that is all down to the players.