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Quote: Superted "For what it's worth, I dont feel there is a particular need to increase the salary cap, I would however echoe some earlier thoughts around the need to reward teams for producing home grown talent.

I believe that any squad member who has come through the teams academy structure should still count on the 25/25 (or whatever it is now) list, but that 50% of their salary should not count on the cap. I would leave a limit (25/25) to stop teams stock piling all of the youngsters, but I really think teams should be rewarded for not only producing the talent, but for sticking by these players and giving them the opportunity to cement a place in the first team squad. The reason I choose 50% of their salary is that, if you take a player like Sinfield, he has become a mafor member of our squad and will no doubt be one of the bigger wages, therefore to only give an allowance of 25k, wouldn't make that much of a dent in his salary.

Following a principle similar to this would hopefully encourage more clubs to stick with young, homegrown talent, rather than bringing in average foriegners. Dont want to have a dig at any particular teams, but do we (as a league) really need to be relying on players like Julian Rinaldi?'"


That's all well and good but I see two issues:

1. Are there enough talented kids out there who are being denied first team rugby by the likes of Rinaldi? I'm not sure there are. You run the risk of watering down the quality of RL just in order to get homegrown players in the team.

2. Any system that favoured clubs for getting homegrown talent in the first team would have to take into account where the club was. For instance it's easier for Leeds and Bradford to promote local talent as they're both clubs in RL areas. It's not the case for Quins or Crusaders. Clubs that have a harder time producing youngsters should get more of a reward.

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Quote: Bullseye "
That's all well and good but I see two issues

They are fair points, in answer to the first point, I think it's clear at certain clubs there is currently a need for the Rinaldi's of this world, and my suggestion is not to stop allowing these signings, more to reward clubs for promoting youngsters from the academy. The clubs would still have the rest of their salary cap to spend as they wish. It's more to prevent clubs losing talented youngsters they have brought through the system to other teams/sports. I think long term this would have a positive effect as it would stop good youngsters leaving as their clubs could offer them a substantial deal, knowing that only half of their salary will count towards the cap, meaning they wouldn't have to get rid of a decent youngster for the short term fix of a more expensive journeyman who may well do a better job in the very short term.

As for the second point, I dont see it as being an issue, Crusaders and Quins do undoubtedly have a harder job as they aren't in the heartlands, however they have theoretically got a much bigger catchment area, so with the benefit of using home grown players, it would force their hands even more so to work on their junior infrastructure. Plus the youngsters in their areas would know that if they are to make it to the big time, the potential is there for big earnings, as once again only half their wage would count towards the cap.

No doubt there would be teething problems, and certain clubs would have an early advantage due to having better structures already in place, but should these clubs be punished/held back because they've had the forsight to set up good academies etc?

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Quote: Superted "For what it's worth, I dont feel there is a particular need to increase the salary cap, I would however echoe some earlier thoughts around the need to reward teams for producing home grown talent.

I believe that any squad member who has come through the teams academy structure should still count on the 25/25 (or whatever it is now) list, but that 50% of their salary should not count on the cap. I would leave a limit (25/25) to stop teams stock piling all of the youngsters, but I really think teams should be rewarded for not only producing the talent, but for sticking by these players and giving them the opportunity to cement a place in the first team squad. The reason I choose 50% of their salary is that, if you take a player like Sinfield, he has become a mafor member of our squad and will no doubt be one of the bigger wages, therefore to only give an allowance of 25k, wouldn't make that much of a dent in his salary.

Following a principle similar to this would hopefully encourage more clubs to stick with young, homegrown talent, rather than bringing in average foriegners. Dont want to have a dig at any particular teams, but do we (as a league) really need to be relying on players like Julian Rinaldi?'"

We're talking about nearly all the clubs not being able to make a profit with the current salary cap level. How would they do if half the salaries of home grown talent don't even count towards the cap (i.e. pushing up their cost base)

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I think bring the cap down to about £1.2M every club spending the maximum would make it a more even and entertaining competition. Possibly have something like U21's are excempt.

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Quote: finglas "
We're talking about nearly all the clubs not being able to make a profit with the current salary cap level. How would they do if half the salaries of home grown talent don't even count towards the cap (i.e. pushing up their cost base)'"


My arguement would be that although the clubs would have the ability to spend more than the cap, it would be up to them as to whether or not to do this. There would probably have to remain regulations in place to stop clubs spending money they haven't got. Similar to the one currently based on only spending a percentage of your turnover.

One of my reasons behind this view is after looking at the Melbourne fiasco. Although they cheated, part of me can understand their frustrations. A large chunk of their major players have come through their junior set up, and they couldnt afford to keep them legally. Why should a club be penalised for spending time and money helping to develop talented players to a point where they can demand massive salaries for them to then have to leave that club to earn the money they deserve?

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Quote: Scorpions for SL "I think bring the cap down to about £1.2M every club spending the maximum would make it a more even and entertaining competition. Possibly have something like U21's are excempt.'"


Oh yeah, what a great quality competition that would be. It wouldn't matter that a team would be full of dross to keep within the cap, as long as each team spends the same. icon_rolleyes.gif

I think a lot of people are undervaluing the players. If you have a quality player it is only right that player could justify a decent salary. I don't think £100k a year for a decent RL player is excessive in any way, especially considering the short career they have. Obviously a class RL player is going to be on much more, and an average player is going to be on less.

But really we should look at a cap that works at an average of £100k a player, possibly to a 20 man squad. I don't think we should limit to undervalue players.

At the same time, the argument for that player leaving goes to another club to get his wage, is also unfair and can be restricting to the player. A player isn't going to turn down £80k at Saints to get £100k at Crusaders is he? Money comes first to a degree, but they want a chance to display talent aswell. And on that basis, in order to fit in the cap we are under valueing.

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So you want clubs to spend £2M on wages when they already run at a loss spending £1.65M? Where is the extra revenue going to come from? Would you be happy paying £40-50 to go to a game so clubs could afford to pay higher wages?

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Gotcha

Why do you think giving players higher wages equates to better quality rugby and vice versa?

I recall Graham Lowe's comments about the full time Super League tourists. It was alon the lines that they were soft. They turn up to training in their BMWs and then sit around all day. Lads who turn up to night training after working as a plasterer etc were much better.

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Quote: G1 "Gotcha

Why do you think giving players higher wages equates to better quality rugby and vice versa?

I recall Graham Lowe's comments about the full time Super League tourists. It was alon the lines that they were soft. They turn up to training in their BMWs and then sit around all day. Lads who turn up to night training after working as a plasterer etc were much better.'"

I think the "top" players deserve more and that clubs shouldn't be pushed into losing quality youngsters they've produced because they are penalised by the cap.
I'm all in favour of acadamy produced players having a % of their wages cap exempt.
As for other clubs who aren't producing the youth that shouldn't mean that they get the advantage of taking top youngsters that clubs like Leeds and Saints produce.

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Quote: G1 "Gotcha

Why do you think giving players higher wages equates to better quality rugby and vice versa?

I recall Graham Lowe's comments about the full time Super League tourists. It was alon the lines that they were soft. They turn up to training in their BMWs and then sit around all day. Lads who turn up to night training after working as a plasterer etc were much better.'"



The landlord of Stoggy's would like to disagree with you.

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Quote: Bullseye "That's all well and good but I see two issues

I think you are assuming that the players the game brings through are all the players available to be brought through, and i really cant agree thats the case.

If the game were to cast its net wider and deeper we would get more, better, players.

We have a system which pretty much consists of a player joining the an amateur club as a child, then moving through the stages, the cream goes to academy rugby, the cream of that to first team. That is really the only route into the game, and we simply dont have the a nationwide amateur set up to sustain that as our only route.

I am personally of the belief that there are many many athletes out there who could be top quality players, but simply never play the game.

Look at a player like Kevin Penny, a basketball player who within a few years of taking up the game is an SL player. Whilst he may not be the answer, the next one might be.

Making it integral to your competitiveness to have a spine of players you have developed will mean when the amateur player pool is exhausted clubs will be forced to to explore new areas and find more, new players and we would see RL scouts looking at sprinters, basketball players, wrestlers, who are 13, 14, 15, 16 and not played RL before, giving them the opportunity, teaching them the basics and i would be very very surprised if we didnt improve our league and national team. There is a limited amount of world class athletic ability, we cant expect it to just fall into our laps in the amatuer RL system.

But whilst the options are all that time and effort and no little skill to find and develop a player, or an antipodean who you know will have the basics already there, clubs arent going to do this.


Quote: Bullseye "2. Any system that favoured clubs for getting homegrown talent in the first team would have to take into account where the club was. For instance it's easier for Leeds and Bradford to promote local talent as they're both clubs in RL areas. It's not the case for Quins or Crusaders. Clubs that have a harder time producing youngsters should get more of a reward.'"
there would be no real issue with giving crusaders a dispensation. Especially with regards to attracting welsh union players. Quins i feel are in a position to compete on an even footing, and that is something they should be very proud of

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Quote: G1 "Gotcha

Why do you think giving players higher wages equates to better quality rugby and vice versa?

I recall Graham Lowe's comments about the full time Super League tourists. It was alon the lines that they were soft. They turn up to training in their BMWs and then sit around all day. Lads who turn up to night training after working as a plasterer etc were much better.'"


It produces better quality for the teams that have the players.

I don't go with this argument that because players don't get the wage they want that they will go to another club, thus increasing the competition in the league. We only have to look at Australia for that, to see players leaving for a sport alien to Rugby League.

I don't see Player A leaving Saints/Leeds to get a better salary at Crusaders/Wakefield. They would have 2 options, leave the game or accept the lower wage and be dissatisfield.

The salary cap is a wonderful concept that all team sports should implement, but it should not be restrictive to the players. Like I said, IMO a decent rugbly league player should be able to earn £100k per year, and should have the opportunity to win things at the same time. I don't think that is excessive. But under the current cap limit a team can not have too many players of that level, never mind great Rugby League players.

IMO all clubs should be spending the same cap yes, but you should not penalise certain teams in order to bring them down to the level of others. It should be the other way round.

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