Tony Smith is a tactically astute and highly regarded coach who is very much his own man, is he not? Are you suggesting he isn't?

Quote: SmokeyTA "Sam Tomkins was appalling in the 4 nations final, at least as bad as Mcguire was in the first game.'" Stats suggest otherwise. livescores.smh.com.au/matches/nrl/match2709.html livescores.smh.com.au/matches/nrl/match2768.html

Quote: SmokeyTA "Sam Tomkins was appalling in the 4 nations final, at least as bad as Mcguire was in the first game.'" Stats suggest otherwise. livescores.smh.com.au/matches/nrl/match2709.html livescores.smh.com.au/matches/nrl/match2768.html

Nothing against McGuire but I honestly don't know how you have possibly reached that conclusion.

Because he offered nothing at all going forward and was just as much a turnstyle in defence.

There is for some reason a feeling that the final was a noble loss by youngsters and the first game was the embarrassment. It really isnt the case, for so long in that final we were devoid of any direction at all. The forwards put up a hell of a fight, the probably beat the Aussie pack for 60minutes of that game, but we wasted so much ball, and Tomkins did nothing all game other than try a chip and chase that was nowhere on the 3rd and throw the same left step which the aussies saw a mile away.

I would go as far as to say the forward performance was dominant, as good as when we beat them in Sydney, Ellis, Burgess Peacock Morley Graham were outstanding, we just did nothing a lot of the time we had it. For periods we had Sinfield playing hooker, halfback and Stand Off.

I just cant see why Tomkins performance was praised, it can be excused because of his age, but it certainly wasnt good.

Eastmond on the other hand looked dangerous the whole time he was on, i liked the way he buzzed around the edges a lot.

You could write a far more stinging critique than that of DM's performance at the DW to be fair.

He wasn't just as much of a turnstyle in defence - he missed less tackles and made fewer errors despite playing the full 80 (unlike DM).

I think we must have been watching different games TBH.

id take the stats on that site with a pinch of salt to be honest, there are some which are clearly wrong

besides, the missed tackle stat is something that clearly is up for debate as to what constitutes whose missed tackle. The defence on Mcguires side in the first game was shot the whole way through, it wasnt solely down to Mcguire, it was down to Briscoe, Smith, and Peacock, frankly it wasnt a surprise the best team in the world ripped through a defensive line containing a complete rookie on the wing, a winger at centre and prop at 2nd row.

And i would also add i dont believe the pack laid the platform in the first game that they did in the 2nd.

Sam Tomkins reminds me a lot of Billy Slater – bags of talent but a dirty little sh[sizei[/sizet with a face that you wouldn’t get sick of punching.

That's about the only valid comparison with Slater. On Wigan's boards some have compared tomins at fullback to Slater. Sorry but there is a planet-wide gulf in standard between the two at fullback. Slater is one of the most dangerous open-field runners I've ever seen, and a very underestimated defender too.

In the two knock out games V Leeds this season Tomkins has lost possession on the first tackle around his own twenty where he had full control. Perhaps it only happens V Leeds in cup games though?

Not sure how Slater would compare.

Right now if fit i'd have McGuire over Tomkins

McGuire also scored the try of the season with his double chip over the top, forget which side but what a fantastic try.

It take a long time for half backs, particularly stand offs, to learn their trade. That's why Wally Lewis, Lauries Daly, Shaun Edwards, Schofield, Lockyear etc were all far more affective in their mid to late twenties. Consequently, I am not surprised that McGuire has been so good this season and, on the basis of what I have witnessed, far superior to Tomkins.
Having said that, Tomkins is very much younger and I am sure, his time will come.
Comparing Tomkins to Slater at the present moment in time is like comparing an RS4 to a Ferrari. One is truly exceptional and performs like a thing of beauty. The other has lots of things to admire and is a class above most of what surrounds it but, in a straight contest on the track, there really is only one winner.

Sam Tomkins needs to be careful in reference to his arm lock technique he uses often to milk penalties.

Some people won't stand there waiting for the ref to act, they may break his arm in getting him off.

** Weegan mode **
"you reap what you sow, a broken arm is the least he deserves for cheating"
"I hope he broke his neck"
"I hope it's a career ending injury"

No no, they only feel like that if you give away a penalty in the last 5 seconds of a game. Being a cheat doesn't count at any other time in the 80 minutes.