Well said.

It is quite obvious our problems run much deeper that a change of coach and many in the squad without the on-field leadership and direction of Sinny and JP are simply not good enough. For many of the games this year we have been in with a chance at half time despite not playing well only to capitulate for periods of the second half on the back of a series of individual errors. As soon as the opposition get on a roll you can see some heads go down and the worst offenders are certain senior players. This has and constant absentees has meant our low and fragile confidence keeps getting shattered when the going gets tough.

Watkins seems to be in a dream and is just coasting along. For Warrington's first try he came in as 3rd tackler quite unnecessarily as the tackle was completed and instead of quickly retreating back into line he chose to stay as 2nd marker leaving one of our two tacklers who had done the work to have make a late retreat. This in turn meant our numbers were down on the blind side and they had the overlap.

Watkins is not the only one to take a lazy rest as 2nd marker, Singleton has this off to a tee taking a rest 12 times at marker last night. If we are to commit 3 players or more to the tackle we have to dominate and turn the attacker over to slow the PTB. The players already know how to do this as the same players have done this many times previously. However they do not have Daddy on the field now to tell them where to stand.

Hardaker looks to have lost his bottle as he is loitering away from the fray to avoid both the bombs and hanging back and not covering the line breaks. This is putting unfair work and pressure on our young wingers. Last season he would have been coming for these all day.

For the vast majority of games we have lacked an experienced play-maker at standoff to turn field position into points and create more opportunities and take better decisions so IMO this is the first priority. We do need a replacement for Falloon but had we had Clark in our side last night it would only have stopped the ones he scored for Warrington himself because he couldn't have prevented the ones we let in due to sloppy marking, missed tackles and lazy marking. Until the coach has a fuller squad so he is able to drop those offenders I cannot see much improvement soon even with a change of coach.

I still wonder if there is some negative off field problem we do not know about that has had an effect on the some of the players mental attitude but the players IMO owe the supporters and the coach better performances than they are serving up.

Perhaps a spell in the middle 8s will allow the opportunity to regain form and confidence as momentum is all against us now.

Thanks for that.

It's a relief that none of the blame can legitimately be laid at the door of the coach himself.

SOME of the blame can be laid at his door. But some people are using a post match interview in which he yet again bites his tongue to not properly rip into the players publicly even though they deserve it and somehow calling him selfish and arrogant. I imagine if you could speak to him privately in future years and ask him about certain individuals in this team and their attitude/effort in 2016 he wouldn't be so defensive of them.

Unless you think the players are blameless William and that we don't have a few sulkers in there who haven't been prepared to step up in the absence of the departed leaders?

What's stopping others putting in the repeated effort of Keinhorst? Whilst their's a debate on whether he'll be good enough long term you can't deny Lilley is giving it a decent crack with the chance he's been given. Again what's stopping others?......."Oh they don't like the coach".....boo hoo! Do people think every Wigan player loves Wane or hasn't fallen out with him? Likewise Tony Smith or Lee Radford who got booted out of the Hull dressing room a couple of months ago.

Are we really believing that Sinfield and Peacock presence alone is the sole difference in putting in the effort that saw them drag themselves off the floor in the last 3 games of 2015 and what we're seeing now? Like I said on another thread when someone said they aren't playing for the coach.....

well they aren't playing for themselves, their teammates...if you were in Keinhorst's shoes right now you'd be p*$$ed off looking around parts of the dressing room, that can be as responsible for a fractured team as much as anything if some players are looking at others knowing they aren't trying....the physios who work hard to get them out there and might be out of a job under a new coach, the management, for GH who has looked out for many and kept some the coach apparently wanted to get rid of and went for some youth in the likes of Sutcliffe instead of an experienced HB, for Caddick, for their families (they're hardly helping their chances of better money longer contracts job security now are they), or the fans.

Whilst we didnt have the kind of season your having right now last year there were issues with players efforts commitment and there were apparently issues off the field. Things were addressed off the field personal were changed and a few key players brought in. There were calls for tony smith to go thankfully we didn't have a knee jerk reaction to sack him.

I think a similar thing is needed at Leeds, more help for Barry would help and for a few experienced players brought in a hooked n half backyard key and a prop could turn things around

I think it's time for McDermott to go he isn't the sole blame a lot of the players need to take some of that but whatever he is doing or saying in training clearly isn't working time for a change.
I would agree though I don't really see an issue with his press conferences he came across to me last night as someone who wanted to let rip at his players but held it in didn't have any problem with it.

Some of these players need dropping and in some cases moving on. I can take a player not getting everything right but at least trying to an non interested no passion performance. Two examples sutty v lilley. Sutty looks lost not a great deal of effort and no real attempt at creating anything. Lilley not everything is coming off but he looks interested and he is trying to lead the team.

When moon gets back I wouldn't shift Jimmy to second row I would drop Watkins. Lakluster performances week in week out he needs to sit out a few.

The middle defence is soft and a bit of a joke particularly around marker.

We are clearly going into the middle 8 we need to at least start to build some performances as if we go in with this sort of form I worry for our future

My pleasure.

No need for to add any more fuel to the fire ignited by the usual suspects

Yes Warrington made the right decision and improved the squad especially in the creative organiser department. Having failed to do this at the end of last season we urgently need to give our coach the tools for the job and get rid of a couple of vastly overrated players who have a bad attitude.

We don't have players with a bad attitude, we have players realising they are not as good as thought. We only have a coach with a bad attitude, a coach who unlike the players can't seem to accept he is nowhere near as good as he thinks.

Finding another Sinfield and Peacock just like that so he has tools is not going to happen. Much easier to have a coach who is capable of getting a performance out of players. Yes we still need a player change, but we need a coach capable of managing that.

So speaks a critic whose opinion is that Hardaker is one of our best performers this year, and also is blind to how bad Watkins currently is and cannot see the fine qualities in Keinhorst. I rest my case.

Oh come on you can't seriously believe that after some of the showings certain players are putting in. Just about everyone can see it in Hardaker but you unsurprisingly can't.

Daryl Powell at Castleford (a smaller club with fewer resources than those afforded any coach at Leeds) has a large turnover of players from season to season including key players in key positions - yet they have not fallen in a heap. His players generally are perceived to perform to their maximum, he appears able to give them a structure to utilise their abilities and to get the best out of them. Why can't Brian?

All the players are playing the same. Why pick out one player? Yet you can't see a problem with the coach. Does that not say more about you? Is it really a bad attitude when all the players are showing contempt for the coach?

I would be quite happy to put a lot of money on it that an immediate change of coach would have a much bigger effect for the positive in this group of players, than any one or two players leaving would.

Of course I have said nothing of the sort anywhere, but you know that really.

Why can't the players tackle? The players, at the very least, share responsibility for this mess. If we were mid-table and just cruising along then it being about the coach not getting the best out of players might be a legitimate point.

Getting hammered at the bottom of the table and conceding simple tries points to different issues than simply the coach. Especially a coach that has so recently proved he could get the best out of the players.

Oh like I've said the coach deserves his share of the blame but the players are just as culpable.

All players are playing the same? Nonsense. Unless you think the efforts the likes of Keinhorst and Lilley are putting in are being matched all around which they most definitely aren't.

We have a small group of guys trying for the whole match. We then have a group of guys who start off trying but heads drop after we go 2/3 scores behind. We also have a group of guys who aren't in it from the start.