I remember watching a game between Bath and Newcastle a few years ago that was just a war of attrition up front, having played I appreciated it, but thought it was nothing in terms of spectacle to someone who was dipping into it and thinking 'is this a game i want to watch'

Forward domination is one thing, and i too love seeing the aussie front 5 vanish up their own backsides, but collapsed scrum, wheeled scrum, slipped bindings, penalty, kick for touch, line out, knock on, start it all again is limited in its appeal to me.

Absolutely essential. Union can be killed by offside and illeagal play at the ruck. In the old days you could shoe the hell out of players trying to kill the ball on the deck and you could thump them as well if they persistantly infringe. Obviously that's all frowned upon now, so if you don't penalise with points scoring chances it can simply kill the game.
The Fiji - Wales game was mentioned earlier in the thread as being dire. It was. A part of that was because the Fijians spent most of the game infringeing at the ruck. Whenever it looked like Wales might get good ball they went on the deck and killed it or came in offside or from the side of the ruck. Not major, but so difficult to play against. If that wasn't penalised heavily then everybody would do it and the game would grind to a halt.

I remember reading an article back in the 80's, I think around the time when they increased the points for a try, and the guy writing it postulated that to give real incentive to score tries the try would have to be worth 20 points. In those days he was probably right.

It's like anything, there are good examples and bad examples. In soemthing that technical it's easy to infringe and most refs don't have a clue what they are looking at (which I find extraordinary).

Re: 2 points for a penalty.

As a non-union watcher, isn't the point of a penalty supposed to be to give reward to a team who would have been in good position to score a try but for foul play?

When the rules were framed, a penalty would only have been convertible within try-scoring range (20-40 yards), and even then with no guarantees. With the advent of professionalism, greater training techniques and strength, different rugby balls etc. *any* Union kicker (as opposed to the occasional freak) has a chance of kicking a penalty from in his own half, and would *expect* to convert from 40-50 yards. So the punishment no longer fits the crime, and they really should reduce the penalty to two points to avoid games where the scores simply move on in multiples of three, because I don't think it's going to be too long before you get kickers who can routinely knock them over from 60+ yards.

At the risk of sounding like Brian Moore, the overwhelming majority of union referees at all levels are guessing when it comes to who is responsible for a collapsed scrum. Bit like a lot of RL referees, they haven't played the game at a high enough level to understand the intricacies of what's going on around them.

Didn't the ELV's first come in in 2008? Super 14 (soon to be 15) was better when it still resembled union. For me, and I understand to some degree why, the Super 14 and to a lesser degree Southern Hemisphere rugby union has moved towards rugby league.
I think the competition would be much better and interesting if we got some different winners; 15 seasons, 4 different champions.

Super Rugby or Super League?

Read the thread title.

I have thanks - not sure how Super Rugby can be somehow less vibrant and exciting because only four teams have won it in fifteen years though. How many teams have won Super League, or English football's Premier League, or La Liga, over the same period?

Who wins in the end doesn't dilute the quality of entertainment a competition provides IMO.

I think that if more than say four or five teams looked like possible champions each year it would add more to the competition. As it is I'd be surprised if either the Bulls or Crusaders didn't lift the trophy again next season.
La Lliga has become boring and predictable and is heading the same way as the Scottish League (look Barça and Madrid's results at the weekend).

I'd agree with the contention that all goals should be two points. The penalty should be a punishment for play, but a an attempt at penalty goal is only one of four restart options (scrum, quick tap, kick for touch). The try should be the most valuable option, and IMO a) a penalty or drop goal should not be worth more than half the points value of a try and b) more than a conversion. There is the oft repeated fear that reducing the value of a goal would encourage more infringements. No, it would not, especially since RU has a sin-bin now, and that deters infringements most effectively.



The rlELVsrl were developed at Stellenbosch University in the Western Cape, South Africa, by an IRB panel. As per the Wikipedia link, they were trialled from Jan 2007 in S Africa, Scotland, Cambridge, England, then in the NSW Shute Shield (Sydney First Grade club Rugby) and the Australian Rugby Championship. They got a good reception in the Shute Shield/ARC that year. They were later trialled in Super 14 in 2008, and got a mixed reception - most of the negative press from the Northern Hemisphere. Some rules didn't work that well, e.g. pulling down the maul, but the free kick replacing penalty was good. However, the NH 6 Nations chose to not test that and other rules, and then voted to scrap most.



Actually, many Australians and NZers would argue that SH Rugby more closely resembles the way Rugby Union should be played - with ball in hand, encouraging the use of skilful handling, playmaking, inventive attacking lines and creative array of kicking to create tries.



Agreed, Super Rugby could do with different winners, and the new expanded NFL style conference (H&A with 'local' teams format may well provide that. The current S14 format with small finals series made early season momentum essential, put huge travel burdens on South African teams, and put league leaders and 2nd played teams in pole position to win. I could see the (KwaZulu-Natal) Sharks, the Stormers and Queensland Reds challenging next year.

I understand the arguments for & against dropping the value of penalty goals but I think that the pro is more convincing if the refs use the yellow card more effectively.
Both the welsh & scottish games last weekend would have improved IMV had the ref used the sin bin for persistent infringements.
A good game of RU is on a par with a good game of RL but a bad one is far worse.

I'd go along with that.

Looking forward to France v Australia next weekend.

Many observers saw the ELV's as a way for Southern Hemisphere teams (particularly Australia) to negate the strengths of us up North. They were seen clearly for what they were by the Home Unions and the French and they were not adopted. What really killed them was the catastrophic effect they had on the game in super 14. The aimless kicking of the ball - and not out of play - for the large majority of plays made it a grim game to watch and the spectators and the TV networks were not impressed.
It's a product at the end of the day, so the likes of Australia, NZ and SA had to go back to the old chestnut of the refereeing of the breakdown as a way to guarantee a World Cup win next time around. With the rules about coming in throught the tackle gate, you now can't simply pour more men into a ruck to win the ball as their just isn't the space. This suits the likes of NZ who can now simply have two guys in a ruck to win the ball cleanly and quickly, and on opposition ball 7's like McCaw (where the Southern Hemisphere perceive they have an advantage) can bridge over the ball and you can't move them off.

If you increased the value of the Penalty goal to say 5-6 points, you would see far less penalties being kicked as there would be less infringements. Decreasing the penalty goal would only further increase the number of kicks per game. Most teams defensive mindsets are better to let them have 3 points for a penalty than say 5-7 for a try and conversion, if you increase the Penalty goal then defensive are going to think twice about committing a transgression if a team is winning by a converted try 7 points it can afford to give away two penalty goals only 6 points and still win, if a Penalty is worth 5 points then by giving one away it brings the game closer if a team is winning by 7 points, 2 penalties and the team will win by 3 points.

This idea has already been trialled elsewhere, where the Penalty Goal was worth something ridiculous like 10 points, in the game that was played no penalty was given away by the defending team.