What have I told you about doing that!!

Agree with some of the views on here. He is a useful squad player and on his day when he is in the mood he is a great first 17 player.

My issue with him is that he is a bit like Wayne MacDonald. He's a big lad who if he had the fearless nature of a Kylie he would run through so many more tackle. As its is he just doesn't seem to quite have that drive.

Happy to have him at the club though. Not every player can be a world beater, and if they were they certainly wouldn't be happy to miss out on some games/start on the bench.

My opinion on him is that he's a cheap option who does his job in the squad, and the 17 when selected.

He doesn't have great stats ball in hand, but usually features high up the tackle count, especially considering how long he plays.

Personally, I think that height is not a great advantage in RL, as most tall people lack the power.

He does what he does, and probably knows his limitations, as do the coaching staff. Its much more likely that he's sent on with the instruction of dont worry about the ball tackle anything that moves around the ruck, rather than he's scared of running it in or lazy.

What twoddle.

Tall players lack power? How tall is Mozza? I agree that with great height does not necessarily come great power but if you look at Kirke, he is tall and stocky which should mean he has the power. He simply lacks the heart to run full tilt into opponents. No shame in that, I wouldn't fancy it, but then its not my job too.

As for your comment on the instructions he's given. Again, I agree players are given instructions and sometimes to the fans a player can look like he is being lazy when in reality he is acting on specfic instructions. However, I cant believe for a second that a coach would say to any player, nevermind a forward 'dont worry about running hard, you just take it easy so your fresh for tackle duty'.

I've no problem with him being in the squad. I just wished there was a little streak of nastiness in him, that would rattle the opposition forwards. I would love to see a group of Leeds forwards who growled as they came on the pitch, but I suppose in these PC times, that sort of attitude would be frowned on.

It could simply be, that BMD is a better player coach than he's been credited with, and is getting Kirke to play up to his potential. Early days, but the signs are promising.

Why is it so hard to believe that a coach might say that? I'm not saying he has, I'm just saying it's not what I'd call 'hard to believe'.

It's not exactly a secret that a good defence wins games. What is it with people's desire for us to score a try on every set?! You know, sometimes it's important to just get a decent solid set in, put in a decent kick, turn the FB around, follow up with a decent chase, and take stock. Whilst I appreciate that there are times in a match when we need to be utterly dominating, making massive advantage, playing the ball quickly, and pressing on to do the same again, it's unrealistic to be expecting that for 80 minutes every single week.

Kirke is not a "dynamic, game changing, hard yards" player. His job (IMO) is to keep things neutral whilst our forwards that are dynamic, game changing & hard yard making get their breath back. If the scores remain the same whilst Kirke is on the pitch, then I would suggest that's his job done.

I agree a player should play to his strengths and a coach should know what these are and ask him to play to these.

What Im saying is that I simply cant believe that Kirke has been asked/coached to not run hard. In the modern game players are suppossed to me more versatile etc... blah blah.

A player might not be that great with the ball (Biffa) but his ability run hard or not is not to do with what he is asked to do by the coach its about what fire is in his belly. Kirke doesn't have that fire (at least not on a consistent basis).

There's running hard, then there's running smart.

Putting your head down and running full tilt at two well set defenders can see you put back on your seat or held up in the wrestle while you try to drive your legs to make an extra yard.

Taking half a yard of pace off your carry and using your footwork to find a weak shoulder can enable you to find your knees and elbows and generate a quick play the ball or draw a penalty.

I'd much rather see players prepared to do the latter rather than trying to show just how much of a tough guy they are by running over people.

Yep, Gareth Ellis is a good example of this. If he ran straight and hard at 2 set props he'd more than likely get knocked to the floor. Using his footwork he gets his nose through the line and often can either get a quick play the ball or an offload away.

Brilliant - quote of the week.

Personally I want forwards who run over people. Seems odd you wouldn't.

As for the sidestep. Oh come on. People like Ali who can sidestep at pace and ghost round players like a back are very much the exception. Most forwards who run hard then try a step a few paces before the collision simply reduce their momentum and make it much easier for the tackler(s).

Im not suggesting runing head first into a wall of players is what its about. What Im saying is that when Kirke takes the ball up he lacks the fire in his belly to punch through on a regular basis. I dont have the stats but I reckon if you look at his tackle busts he would be lower doen the list than most other forwards. (Cue someone about to put egg on my face with the real stats).

I hate to keep harping back to this same issue but... salary cap!!

Our squad, and the salary cap, simply does not allow Kirke to be the player some people seem to want him to be. Look, if he made the yards of JP, with the 'fire' of Biffa (debatable!), the offloading of Ali & the tactical awareness of Buderus, he'd be the best forward in the game bar none. Salary Cap would not allow that.

It seems odd I wouldn't want my team to get a quick play the ball at the expense of being a yard closer to the opposition try line?

You have been watching the last couple of years in SL haven't you, where speed of the play the ball has become one of the dominant factors in how effective you can be in possession?

Watch James Graham for a perfect example of running smart. Not the biggest of props, but very rarely gets sat on his backside because he makes it hard for defenders to get a clean shot on him.

Doesn't need to be an outrageous Neil Hunt style sidestep, just subtle little changes of angle to expose off balance defenders.

Course if you've managed to genetically modify some sort of super prop who runs over people on a regular basis then that's great. Meanwhile back in the real world I'll settle for ball carriers who don't present defenders with a sitting target.

Why is there such a fallacy about Kirke and Salary cap?

Gareth actually posted it earlier, how do any of you know what Kirke is on?

The fact that our CEO Mr Hetherington has gone on record each season and declared that we have space available on the cap just incase something happens in the market, that would suggest bar some posters logic that we are been short changed with Kirke.

But what you have to weigh up is, is it best to have utilized the full cap with a more expensive player (assuming Kirke is on the low salary people are deeming him to be), or is it best to have room on the cap with a less talented individual in Kirke. It could probably be argued the route the club has taken was the best option, although then again things change.

Doesn't make a difference whether or not we know what Kirke is on.

The point remains the same... in a salary capped sport, you cannot have the best player in the world in every position and need some 'fillers' that just do an 'adequate' job.

of course nobody knows how much kirke is on, and whilst made my remark about him been a cheaper squad option i made it because i would doubt he'd be in the top ten players in the squad and 1.7 million doesn't go that far over 25 players (£68k a year each) i doubt kirke is on half that (do you?) and seen as though there will be a few posters on here on around that a year for not playing rugby league i'd say he was a cheaper option squad player. and even more so if our CEO is saying that the club has space under the cap "just in case" how much does the club have spare?