Quote El Diablo="El Diablo"Sorry to bring this back two pages, but since I worked in evidence-based medicine for a long time (I'm more into evidence-base in social policy these days so I'm a bit rusty but the principles are quite similar), including critical appraisal of research evidence and its incorporation into clinical practice, I was wondering whether you could point me towards the research evidence or trial data that leads you to conclude that this is "scientific fact." I've had a little look on PubMed and I can't find anything, although it wasn't the most scientific search. Could you dig out the papers I'm missing to save me the time? Might be worth forwarding them to the club's medical staff too.'" Oh dear. 6.Avoid playing when very tired or in pain. This is a set-up far a careless injury. Pain indicates a problem. You need to pay attention to warning signs your body provides. (See: Six Sports Injury Warning Signs) Research provides us with helpful clues about the cause of sports injury. There are two factors that outweigh the rest when it comes to predicting a sports injury. They are: •Having a history of injury. Previous injuries to a muscle, or joint tend to develop into chronic problem areas for many athletes. It is extremely important to warm up, and stretch previously injured parts. •A high number of consecutive days of training. Recovery days reduce injury rates by giving muscles and connective tissues an opportunity to repair between training sessions Reference American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons Public Information Web: www.aaos.org/wordhtml/home2.htm March 2000 Of course, as stated earlier this does not mean a given for injuries, it is just that you are more susceptible, which is what I said. Can you provide anything even remotely close that suggests your are not more likely to get injuries when fatigued?

Quote El Diablo="El Diablo"Sorry to bring this back two pages, but since I worked in evidence-based medicine for a long time (I'm more into evidence-base in social policy these days so I'm a bit rusty but the principles are quite similar), including critical appraisal of research evidence and its incorporation into clinical practice, I was wondering whether you could point me towards the research evidence or trial data that leads you to conclude that this is "scientific fact." I've had a little look on PubMed and I can't find anything, although it wasn't the most scientific search. Could you dig out the papers I'm missing to save me the time? Might be worth forwarding them to the club's medical staff too.'" Oh dear. 6.Avoid playing when very tired or in pain. This is a set-up far a careless injury. Pain indicates a problem. You need to pay attention to warning signs your body provides. (See: Six Sports Injury Warning Signs) Research provides us with helpful clues about the cause of sports injury. There are two factors that outweigh the rest when it comes to predicting a sports injury. They are: •Having a history of injury. Previous injuries to a muscle, or joint tend to develop into chronic problem areas for many athletes. It is extremely important to warm up, and stretch previously injured parts. •A high number of consecutive days of training. Recovery days reduce injury rates by giving muscles and connective tissues an opportunity to repair between training sessions Reference American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons Public Information Web: www.aaos.org/wordhtml/home2.htm March 2000 Of course, as stated earlier this does not mean a given for injuries, it is just that you are more susceptible, which is what I said. Can you provide anything even remotely close that suggests your are not more likely to get injuries when fatigued?

Quote Gotcha="Gotcha"Oh dear. 6.Avoid playing when very tired or in pain. This is a set-up far a careless injury. Pain indicates a problem. You need to pay attention to warning signs your body provides. (See: Six Sports Injury Warning Signs) Research provides us with helpful clues about the cause of sports injury. There are two factors that outweigh the rest when it comes to predicting a sports injury. They are: •Having a history of injury. Previous injuries to a muscle, or joint tend to develop into chronic problem areas for many athletes. It is extremely important to warm up, and stretch previously injured parts. •A high number of consecutive days of training. Recovery days reduce injury rates by giving muscles and connective tissues an opportunity to repair between training sessions Reference American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons Public Information Web: www.aaos.org/wordhtml/home2.htm March 2000'" Why "oh dear"? Please explain how "a high number of consecutive days of training" is the same as "a high number of weekly matches." I'm not being pedantic, but they are describing fatigue over two very different periods and intervals. Not being privvy to the club's training schedules you may be onto something. But I would imagine they are not doing high intensity physical training every day of the week. If there are no recovery days in the players' schedules then I will happily join you in castigating the coaching methods. But we were talking about playing every week, not training every day. Also, while I'm not doubting the authenticity of your reference (I'm honestly not), that link doesn't work. I am also not a great fan of any "evidence" which starts with the phrase "research shows us" or some derivvative thereof. I would much prefer to see the research. Very often (as is probably the case here) there is significant and robust research trial data underpinning it, but there are also lots of cases "see every herbalist, homeopath or other quack going) where the phrase appears irrespective of whether there is any research, or whether if there is research that is actually what it shows. In this case, to be clear, I have read some good research on consecutive training days, so I'm not doubting the source. Just their careless presentation.

Quote Gotcha="Gotcha"Oh dear. 6.Avoid playing when very tired or in pain. This is a set-up far a careless injury. Pain indicates a problem. You need to pay attention to warning signs your body provides. (See: Six Sports Injury Warning Signs) Research provides us with helpful clues about the cause of sports injury. There are two factors that outweigh the rest when it comes to predicting a sports injury. They are: •Having a history of injury. Previous injuries to a muscle, or joint tend to develop into chronic problem areas for many athletes. It is extremely important to warm up, and stretch previously injured parts. •A high number of consecutive days of training. Recovery days reduce injury rates by giving muscles and connective tissues an opportunity to repair between training sessions Reference American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons Public Information Web: www.aaos.org/wordhtml/home2.htm March 2000'" Why "oh dear"? Please explain how "a high number of consecutive days of training" is the same as "a high number of weekly matches." I'm not being pedantic, but they are describing fatigue over two very different periods and intervals. Not being privvy to the club's training schedules you may be onto something. But I would imagine they are not doing high intensity physical training every day of the week. If there are no recovery days in the players' schedules then I will happily join you in castigating the coaching methods. But we were talking about playing every week, not training every day. Also, while I'm not doubting the authenticity of your reference (I'm honestly not), that link doesn't work. I am also not a great fan of any "evidence" which starts with the phrase "research shows us" or some derivvative thereof. I would much prefer to see the research. Very often (as is probably the case here) there is significant and robust research trial data underpinning it, but there are also lots of cases "see every herbalist, homeopath or other quack going) where the phrase appears irrespective of whether there is any research, or whether if there is research that is actually what it shows. In this case, to be clear, I have read some good research on consecutive training days, so I'm not doubting the source. Just their careless presentation.

I stopped reading at the sentence of point 6 to be honest with you. That's all that needs to be clear on the points here.

Avoid playing when very tired or in pain, this is a set up for a careless injury.

Exactly what I have said since page one.

You should perhaps not have supplied the rest as evidence of your point without reading it. To save you the trouble, it didn't back up your point. Partial reading of "evidence" often leads people to draw unwarranted conclusions from that evidence. I feel that is what you have done here.

You also haven't demonstrated that the above players were "very tired" or in pain. I would further suggest that you have to be very, very careful with definitions there or very few competitive matches in contact sport will get finished.

You earlier said that what you have written was "fact" and not opinion. All I'm asking is that you back up that assertion. Opinions you are entitled to, if you are adamant that they are facts then that needs substantiating. If you can do that, then maybe you could move on to suggesting that everyone who doesn't agree with you is an idiot. But then, if you can do that then I'll be persuaded to your point of view, and you won't have to.

Obviously there would be some deeper health problem with a player being ‘very tired’ 7 days after playing 80minutes of RL, even a relatively unfit person could do 80minutes of high intensity exercise without being ‘very tired’ for a week afterwards never mind a highly trained athlete. If their recovery and training is managed well there is no reason for a player to be too tired to play.

Maybe simply the fact of playing increases the chances of injury. There is clearly more chance Sinfield would be injured by playing RL than not. I don’t play anymore and funnily enough I haven’t had an RL related injury since. But our players are RL players, their job is to play RL, if they aren’t able to play games for us because they are too tired then they shouldn’t be playing RL for us. Sinfield has the same injury as Bailey, nobody would argue Bailey has been injured by a lack of rotation.

There is a chance that these injuries are just injuries, that to see players out with hand, ankle, leg, shoulder and knee injuries isn’t because of a failing in management but due to the fact that Rugby League is a contact sport where Hands, Shoulders, Ankles, Legs and Knees, take a lot of punishment and injuries are common and to have them all at once is just unfortunate. It would take a lot to convince me that Bailey and Sinfield wouldn’t haven broken their thumbs, Mcguire wouldn’t have broken his leg, Ward wouldn’t have dislocated his shoulder had they played 1 or 2 less games a few weeks before their injury.

This is your best & funniest post in ages... back to your heyday quality under youir A_P nom-de-plume.

PS. All this thread needs now is for Smokey_TA to join in debating Sinfield's thumb...

Post review stage... beat me to it!

Quote Gotcha="Gotcha"Oh dear. 6.Avoid playing when very tired or in pain. This is a set-up far a careless injury. Pain indicates a problem. You need to pay attention to warning signs your body provides. (See: Six Sports Injury Warning Signs) Research provides us with helpful clues about the cause of sports injury. There are two factors that outweigh the rest when it comes to predicting a sports injury. They are: •Having a history of injury. Previous injuries to a muscle, or joint tend to develop into chronic problem areas for many athletes. It is extremely important to warm up, and stretch previously injured parts. •A high number of consecutive days of training. Recovery days reduce injury rates by giving muscles and connective tissues an opportunity to repair between training sessions Reference American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons Public Information Web: www.aaos.org/wordhtml/home2.htm March 2000 Of course, as stated earlier this does not mean a given for injuries, it is just that you are more susceptible, which is what I said. Can you provide anything even remotely close that suggests your are not more likely to get injuries when fatigued?'" Was Sinfield's thumb very tired or in pain? Was it a chronic problem that he ought to have done stretching or warm-up for? Had it had a high number of consecutive days of training? Sorry Gotcha, your evidence doesn't convince.

Quote Gotcha="Gotcha"Oh dear. 6.Avoid playing when very tired or in pain. This is a set-up far a careless injury. Pain indicates a problem. You need to pay attention to warning signs your body provides. (See: Six Sports Injury Warning Signs) Research provides us with helpful clues about the cause of sports injury. There are two factors that outweigh the rest when it comes to predicting a sports injury. They are: •Having a history of injury. Previous injuries to a muscle, or joint tend to develop into chronic problem areas for many athletes. It is extremely important to warm up, and stretch previously injured parts. •A high number of consecutive days of training. Recovery days reduce injury rates by giving muscles and connective tissues an opportunity to repair between training sessions Reference American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons Public Information Web: www.aaos.org/wordhtml/home2.htm March 2000 Of course, as stated earlier this does not mean a given for injuries, it is just that you are more susceptible, which is what I said. Can you provide anything even remotely close that suggests your are not more likely to get injuries when fatigued?'" Was Sinfield's thumb very tired or in pain? Was it a chronic problem that he ought to have done stretching or warm-up for? Had it had a high number of consecutive days of training? Sorry Gotcha, your evidence doesn't convince.

Once again, you are saying I posted something that was not posted.

I believe you are referring to the post where I said "injuries are more likely to happen when fatigued, and this is not opinion but fact". If that is what you are referring to then I stick by it. Infact, the Leeds physio used the exact term last week when giving a run down on our current injuries position.

He must have been playing too much RL on the playstation.

I know you did, I never said you didn't......infact I never quoted you at all.

However these are professional sportsmen who had in the region of 3 months off playing regularly inbetween last year and this one. That 2012 is now being added to the reason we have injuries now is laughable. Most teams have had a spell over the last few years where they've had an injury crisis.....have all these teams flogged players for 18 months to cause it? Did Singleton suffer a dead leg the previous week because of continuous flogging?

The funny thing is I'm not a massive McDermott fan actually, I feel pretty neutral to the guy and think he does make mistakes, but apparently unless you berate and blame him for everything all the time like some do on here then apparently you must love him.....strange.

And that really is the heart of most threads on here lately, people ignoring logic and reasoning or what actually happened in games to blame everything on McDermott or one of the other pre-determined targets.....it quite tragic.

It still isn't fact, but it is a better grounded opinion. Just for clarity, am I correct in my new thinking that the disputed statement wasn't (as I had first thought) intended to support the position that Leeds' current run of injuries is attributable to players not sitting out enough weekly matches?

It's a fact that the rugby gods are more likely to strike when a player's tired, otherwise McGuire would have been injured at the start of the 2010 wigan playoff and not the end.