If you dont think coaching matters or that Holbrook over Cunninham made a massive difference, then you dont know what your talking about imo...Sorry if that sounds harsh.

Not harsh at all pal, never said it doesn't matter. Class players in the right positions make all the difference, that's what I'm saying. A fit Gale for us, full of swagger makes all the diference. Give us 4-6 weeks and then we'll judge this team better....

Leeds team under Dean Bell vs Leeds team under Graham Murray tells you all about the impact a quality coach can have with limited player turnover. Bizarre to suggest otherwise.

Some folk do come across a bit dense on here.
Do you think Holbrook coached Barba into the player he was, or Agar coached the Gale masterclass of Kicking vs Wigan in CC semi? Or anyone coached Long himself to play the way he did?
We need our best players back and ft before we know what this team is capable of. Main role of a coach is to keep a professional and confident camp..... Imho....

There are too many factors involved to just say a coach can make such a difference

Great sides have all the factors nailed, including luck with injuries

Pot calling the kettle here im afraid and your missing the point by a mile, its not just about coaching them into the player they are individualy, that process starts when theyr kids, good coaching at the top level is about putting the players into systems and structures that get the best out of them

You must think Sinfields dense because he's paying Long a wage to be our attack coach, whys he doing that? Whys he paying JJB to be our defense coach? He must have this silly notion that coaching matters.

Good players with good coaching beat good players with poor coaching.

If coaching wasnt massively important, clubs wouldnt be fighting over the good ones

Im not sure what you are trying to argue about Seth to be honest. Ive said repeatedly on here our overseas signings have been poor and certain players shouldnt have got extensions. Ive said for 2 years were not at the standard of Saints and Wigan even at our best.

Just go back to the pages when the game was actually on last night and read the comments. My point, as i said in my post is weve players playing out of position, weve kids playing weekly, weve players just returning from injury, certain players are having to play longer minutes and weve around 10 players out. What part of that are you disagreeing with?

To be criticising the team the way some are when despite all of the above it is visably trying its best and competing most weeks is absolutely ridiculous. Some seem to have very unrealistic expectations of everyone at the club.

Chripes, we went to Saints with a half back pairing of Rhyse Martin and Cam Smith and competed. This team has a lot going against it at the moment and previous teams wouldve thrown the towel in but this team is choosing to compete weekly inspite of the limitations ive mentioned.

Cmon Seth, you are better than that.

98 and 2004 the coaches made a difference and we were lucky with injuries 2005 some key injuries, think we were fairly stable 2015 some finals replacements have done well hall , smith walker , harris and cuthbo were unique in their time

but it probably won't mean as much as 99 or 2014 for different reasons and one good game last year doesn't provide a get out of jail indefinately,

Well we got the two points which is the main thing. From last night prior and mik are quality props, I think king looks a decent signing good bench prop looked solid. Thought broadbent looked like he needed a rest he’s done well for us but looked like he needed a rest. Think myler coming back will be good and also helps out half backs from fullback. Was really impressed with O’Connor, good D. And gannon looks quality. Not having a go at Walter I like him for the future but you can tell he is a youngster getting into the team, gannon just looked like he belonged. I have never rated sutcliffe as a half we need a bit of stability with Gale and a settled standoff with myler at back and we will be ok.

so in effect like most people only fully happy with mik and prior but happy giving their all.... in the ground i'll sing for a team giving it's all and cheer a win but in analysis look at who's put us in the position of being happy with effort and it's not the injuries. either kev /gh recruited bad or kev/agar not good enough coaches

I don't think I need to be better than anything. My criticisms are actually in line with the 'u9s/unprofessional' criticisms you made yourself. I think I'm experience enough to be able to discern when a team/player is getting the best out of themselves (or near) again taking mitigating factors in to account. I was full of praise for the team in the Wigan, cas and saints games and the team did themselves proud, similarly though I've been critical the last 3 weeks as they have been poor (yes, even for a team missing the players they are). This is alluded to by agar himself.

I'm not disagreeing with the statements you make but that actually its not the younger players that are the issue (who could have many mitigating factors for any indifferent performances) rather some senior players again as agar himself mentions. Many of these performances and (to quote agar) 'crazy stupid errors' go beyond mitigation, similar to your thoughts on the basic skill level of the 9s, that's not about players missing. . My confusion is that you seem to hit the roof when anyone says the performance is awful yet on the other hand have said similar. If it's the way over the top statements of mass clear outs you refer to then they're very few and far between I dont know why you let them get to you.

Few and far between Seth? We are upto.page 38 and the game was only last night.

You wasnt happy with Gannon and O'Connor last night? I thought they was both outstanding. Really enjoyed watching them did you Doc?

Plenty of reasonable criticism in those 38 pages yes, way over the top mass culling posts;few and far between.