He was just as good, if not better last season, just in slightly different ways.
This year he's been outstanding, in my view, in defence and in transition. His kick returns or runs on play 1 or 2 following a kick have really helped get us up field.

I know you're knocking on a fair bit so maybe it's harder for you to focus on the rugby. I guess that is why you pay so much attention to the statistics, because you can sit back in your shackleton with your illuminated magnifier sipping your horlicks and base your opinions upon those stats.

Now, if we've both finished being condescending towards each other, we clearly have a difference of opinion. You've lept to Moon's defence heroically but you don't appear to have realised that my criticism of Moon was also tempered with some praise.

I can handle that we have different opinions about players. In fact, when my opinion about a player differs from a poster who can often be found defending billy 3 carries I am more than comfortable with that.

In your opinion, which others can judge the value of.

I don't understand this. BJB would have been a few metres ahead of where he should have been and this guarantees a try? Hall has consistently been a few metres ahead of where he shoudl have been this season?

Is it gibberish or am I missing a wink?

No you just can't read. No doubt so desperate to post a response and get defensive, that's probably the problem.

Read it again, and it is very clear.

Is it spooky when it's been a noticeable trait all season even if it's passed the good folk of Opta and some others by?

Opening the book with the first game of the season at Home to Hull

5th minute - Knock-On - Moon from a loose carry
6th minute - Penalty - Bailey - Interference at the Play The Ball

12th minute - Lost possession - Sinfield - poor offload in traffic
13th minute - Penalty - Peacock - Interference at the Play The Ball

V Melbourne in the World CLub Challenge

30th minute - Knock-On - Burrow - I think we can all remember this one
31st minute - Penalty - Delaney - Interference at the Play The Ball

35th minute - Knock-On - Moon - Poor pass selection
35th minute - Penalty - Burrow - Offside at scrum

61st minute - Knock-On - Ward - Poor pass from Sinfield
62nd minute - Penalty - Peacock - Offside at the Play The Ball

V St Helens Away

7th minute - Knock-On - Ward - From an incorrect Play The Ball
7th minute - Penalty - Jones-Buchanan - Interference at the Play The Ball

64th minute - Knock-On - Ablett - From a McShane Pass
65th minute - Penalty - McShane - Interference at the Play The Ball

V Bradford Home

20th minute - Knock-On - McGuire - From a Jones-Buchanan offload
21st minute - Penalty - Jones-Buchanan - Pushing and Not Square at the Play The Ball

62nd minute - Lost possession - Ablett - Ball stolen
62nd minute - Penalty - Ablett - Interference at the Play The Ball

These were just in some of the Sky Leeds games covered before the end of March and if I continued the list the trend would almost certainly continue as it's been a noticeable feature in Leeds game all season and there were still the two instances again in Saturday's game at Warrington. To fail to complete your sets of possession can happen but to then allow that frustration to lead to a further loss in field position and more defensive duties is poor by any standard.

Even when Leeds have a comparative walkover encounter such as the game V London at the Stoop it's still in their armoury - Burrow - Shocker
8th minute - Penalty - Peacock - High tackle

41st minute - Knock-On - Moon - Pass from Sinfield
41st minute - Penalty - ? - Offside



Warrington out-played Leeds because first and foremost they have a better squad and a much better coach. They have two high quality hookers while Leeds have none with an interchange policy that shares the front-row workload evenly and that doesn't appear to carry spare parts who are given scant minutes after the result is decided. I would have thought ranting at the referee was below your usual standards but if you want to plumb those depths, then carry on.



The Kirke critics can answer that one themselves. The Bailey stat looks poor and before the game I was calling for Singleton to retain his starting place after a great showing the week before but obviously the coach (no doubt with your full backing) knows best.

According to Opta?



Whose facts, are they trustworthy and can they describe the actual incidents that determine a game? They are numbers on a spreadsheet - they are not rugby league.

For example what your 'facts' won't have noticed on Saturday is which player was left on the ground by Westwood as Monaghan (Michael - a genuine hooker) expertly engaged the A defender (Delaney) which caused the B defender (Jones-Buchanan) to sink in on defence which opened a huge gap between the B and C defender (Watkins) which allowed a carthorse such as Grix (Simon) to romp through embarrass Hardaker and score. The kick from Ratchford regained Warrington the lead and they would never lose it again.

The referee could have penalised Leeds at the PTB but chose to play an advantage and Warrington were good enough to seize it. In case you're wondering it was Sinfield and in particular Moon who had failed to control the speed of the PTB that led to the try being scored, unfortunately no amount of searching Opta's so called facts will recognise that.

Come on tvoc, you can't put such sensible accurate posts like that on here.

Anyone would think they are on the wrong forum.

There are other things as well, I mentioned it briefly on another thread when statto was analysing Bailey's contribution by reference to Opta. On Saturday Bailey won posession for us four times by diving on a loose ball, winning a penalty, intercepting a pass and forcing a knock on with a strong challenge.

Again, I'm not sure that is recognised in the stats but taking posession from you opponents four times is very positive contribution.

He was one of few players who managed to secure us field position.

Interesting to see Ben Harrison get sucked in a couple of times again, you'd have thought they'd have learnt Grand Final lessons by now.

Unless you can point to a statistic showing this occuring then I won't accept that it did occurr.

No can do, my opinion was solely based on viewing the game in the real world.

Even if I had a stat burp up my sleeve....I'd leave it there.

Soz.

Slowing down the play the ball is one of the most important aspects of the game (as alluded to by TVOC above). Its not mentioned in OPTA either but when its used to defend a player, it is dismissed by many people. Why is that?

I can't speak for "many people" only myself.

I don't necessarily dismiss it but in respect of said "a player" I don't think he does it as much as his supporters claim and I don't think it's enough to make up for his lack of effort in one area that is easily quantifiable by reference to stats, carries.

Slowing the ptb down and missing few tackles is not imo and should not be deemed good enough for a Prop in our 1st choice 17.
I look at the overall picture when reviewing performance and again imo as the Champions team and Club we are then certain players within this squad/team aren't good enough OR offer enough to warrant week in week out selection irrespective of performance.

Slowing the play the ball down is all about tackling technique. Either twisting the player onto his back perferably with legs facing sideways or towards the defending team, or getting into an upwright wrestle with multiple defenders allowing the defence time to set. If you have outright domination of the collision the ref will shout dominant and allow you a few extra seconds of lying on.

I've not kept track of the exact arc of the discussion but this is one area i feel leeds often struggle. They never got a grip on this against warrington. Lying on and messing around at the PTB and just generally f*cking around after losing the collision does not constitute slowing the PTB, you are just testing the refs patience for penalties. This is what many of our forwards wind up doing, JJB is one of the worst for it. Leeds could have been penalised alot more on saturday.

It also seems to be something that leeds either have a grip of, or they don't. If they start the game against saints and they don't have a grip on the ruck it's not something they ever seem to able to turn around during the game, and unless the opposition cough up loads of posession or penalties, they end up consistently on the back foot territory wise throught the game. This is what happened against warrington.

its the second or 3rd man into The tackle which takes a neutral tackle into a defensive win. Krone does well here, as does bailey. If you wrap a man when he's stood up and bring him down slowly onto his back you earn several more seconds than even a dominant hit. Where we go wrong is like you say losing the collision and then trying to get as many seconds messing on the floor. Jjb is by far the worst but others are pretty poor in this area.

It's it enough to justify someone a spot in the team, certainly not, but it adds a lot to the shape of a game