Good stats, but I personally think that some teams just don't have the minerals or enough left in the tank to compete with the big boys.

I was chatting to a mate about this the other day. Has anyone got stats about away wins since the play off started. Given when you play away you are playing a higher team, I would like to see how many there are, and who has most. I can think of the following:
Leeds at KR in 2005
Leeds at DW in 2010
Leeds at HJ in 2011
Leeds at Galpharm in 2011
Leeds at Catalans in 2012
Wire at Leeds in 2006
Wigan at Bradford in 2007
Bradford at Saints in 2005
Saints at Wire in 2012
Saints at Wigan in 2011

I'm sure there are more, but probably not that many

Since the SL Play-Offs began in 1998 there have been 99 games played including the 14 finals. That makes Wigan V Leeds game number 100 but that's beside the point.

Excluding the Finals the remaining 85 matches have finished with 57 home wins and 28 away wins. So statistically that's 1 away win to 2 defeats in every 3 matches. Surprised?

List of all Away Play-Off wins:

09-Oct-98 ….. SL 3 - ESF ….. Halifax V St Helens ….. 30 - 37
19-Sep-99 ….. SL 4 - EPO ….. Wigan V Castleford …..10 - 14
24-Sep-99 ….. SL 4 - ESF ….. Leeds V Castleford ….. 16 - 23
29-Sep-00 ….. SL 5 - QSF ….. Wigan V St Helens ….. 16 - 54
28-Sep-01 ….. SL 6 - ESF ….. Hull V St Helens ….. 20 - 24
05-Oct-02 ….. SL 7 - QSF ….. St Helens V Bradford ….. 26 - 28
10-Oct-03 ….. SL 8 - FE ….. Leeds V Wigan ….. 22 - 23
24-Sep-04 ….. SL 9 - EPO ….. Hull V Wakefield ….. 18 - 28
02-Oct-04 ….. SL 9 - QSF ….. Leeds V Bradford ….. 12 - 26
24-Sep-05 ….. SL 10 - EPO ….. Warrington V Hull ….. 6 - 40
30-Sep-05 ….. SL 10 - QSF ….. St Helens V Leeds ….. 16 - 19
07-Oct-05 ….. SL 10 - FE ….. St Helens V Bradford ….. 18 - 23
22-Sep-06 ….. SL 11 - EPO ….. Leeds V Warrington ….. 17 - 18
21-Sep-07 ….. SL 12 - EPO ….. Bradford V Wigan ….. 30 - 31
29-Sep-07 ….. SL 12 - ESF ….. Hull V Wigan ….. 18 - 21
20-Sep-08 ….. SL 13 - ESF ….. Les Catalans V Wigan ….. 26 - 50
19-Sep-09 ….. SL 14 - EPO ….. Wakefield V Les Catalans ….. 16 - 25
25-Sep-09 ….. SL 14 - PSF ….. Huddersfield V Les Catalans ….. 6 - 16
26-Sep-09 ….. SL 14 - PSF ….. Hull KR V Wigan ….. 16 - 30
11-Sep-10 ….. SL 15 - EPO ….. Hull V Hull KR ….. 4 - 21
12-Sep-10 ….. SL 15 - QPO ….. Wigan V Leeds ….. 26 - 27
18-Sep-10 ….. SL 15 - PSF ….. Warrington V Huddersfield ….. 22 - 34
25-Sep-10 ….. SL 15 - QSF ….. Leeds V Wigan ….. 6 - 26
18-Sep-11 ….. SL 16 - QPO ….. Wigan V St Helens ….. 18 - 26
23-Sep-11 ….. SL 16 - PSF ….. Huddersfield V Leeds ….. 28 - 34
30-Sep-11 ….. SL 16 - QSF ….. Warrington V Leeds ….. 24 - 26
15-Sep-12 ….. SL 17 - QPO ….. Warrington V St Helens ….. 6 - 28
21-Sep-12 ….. SL 17 - PSF ….. Les Catalans V Leeds ….. 20 - 27

In terms of which teams have achieved the most away wins in the Play-Offs -

Wigan 6
Leeds 5
St Helens 5
Bradford 3
Castleford 2
Catalans 2
Huddersfield 1
Hull 1
Hull KR 1
Wakefield 1
Warrington 1

If you look closer at each one though...

2009 - Hull KR (4th) lost to Leeds (1st) and then to Wigan (6th)
2010 - Leeds (4th) beat Wigan (1st) and then lost to Wigan
2011 - Hudds (4th) lost to Wire (1st and then lost to Leeds (5th)
2012 - Catalans (4th) lost to Wigan (1st) and then lost to Leeds (5th)
The 4th placed team has had to play either Leeds or Wigan in 7 of the 8 games. Two of the three strong playoff teams. The only game won was when Leeds finished 4th.


2009 - Wakey (5th) lost to Catalans (8th)
2010 - Hudds (5th) beat Crusaders (8th) and then Wire (3rd) and then lost to Saints (2nd)
2011 - Leeds (5th) beat Hull (8th) Hudds (4th) Wire (1st) and Saints (3rd)
2012 - Leeds (5th) have beat Wakey (8th) and Catalans (4th)

Note which teams are in red again, Hudds run stopped as soon as they faced the other of the big 3 Saints. Whilst Leeds broke the mould. If 5th is so easy and rewarding then why didn't Wakey or Hudds win or at least get to the GF???


2009 - Wigan (6th) beat Cas (7th) and KR (4th) then lost to Saints (2nd)
2010 - Hull (6th) lost to KR (7th)
2011 - Catalans (6th) beat KR (7th) then lost to Wigan (2nd)
2012 - Hull (6th) beat Hudds (7th) then lost to Wire (2nd)

The only team to beat a higher ranked team from 6th place, one of those big 3 again Wigan. The other 3 wins coming against the 7th place team at home which you would probably expect.

I'll even do 3rd placed teams
2009 - Hudds (3rd) lost to Saints (2nd) and then Catalans (8th)
2010 - Wire (3rd) lost to Saints (2nd) and then Hudds (5th)
2011 - Saints (3rd) beat Wigan (2nd) twice, away and than at home, lost GF to Leeds (5th)
2012 - Saints (3rd) beat Wire (2nd) and will face them again at home this week.

So an 0 and 4 record when Wire and Hudds finished 3rd. Put one of the big boys in Saints there and it's a 3 and 1 record with the only defeat coming against......Leeds. Whether it's from finishing 2nd or 3rd, Saints have dominated the 2nd v 3rd clash winning 4 from 4.

Anybody following a pattern here???

Leeds record in Top 8 Playoffs -
Total W7 - L0

Saints record in Top 8 Playoffs -
Total W4 - L0

Wigan record in top 8 Playoffs -
Total W5 - L0

Leeds, Saints & Wigan vs Other opposition in Top 8 Playoffs W16 - L0

In fact if you exclude matches and losses against former big playoff team Bradford then only on 3 occasions have those 3 teams lost to 'other opposition' in the SL Playoffs history going back to 1998.
Leeds - 1999 vs Castleford....2006 vs Warrington
Wigan - 1999 vs Castleford
Saints - Have never lost to any other team in the playoffs except Leeds, Wigan and Bradford.

I see a lot of difference.

Being rewarded with a home game against the 8th placed whipping boys for starters.

Then being rewarded with an away game against a team that's been beaten up the week before by the team finishing 1st.

TVOC's stats above back this up... the superior play-off results of the team finishing 5th in comparison to the poor results of the team finishing 4th. It's no fluke. Finishing 5th is an easier ride than finishing 4th under the current system, mainly because there's only 4 credible teams in the competition who can win it. Therefore, any of the 4 genuine competitors for the SL title might be well advised to take it easy and finish 5th rather than 4th if finishing in the Top 3 is proving too much for them over the course of the regular season. Wakefield at home in week 1 or Wigan away in week 1? That's a no brainer of a choice.

The key issue for me remains the reintroduction of some credibility and meaning to the SL regular rounds where finishing position counts for all. This will only happen when we return to a Top 5 play-off system, reduce the number of teams in SL to 12 and reintroduce P&R.

As ThePrinters rather detailled analysis shows quite well, its the teams not the positions which seem to have more influence.

For the 4th placed team, going to 1st, they can rest their entire team, and take on 5th place (at worse) at Home, followed by a trip back to 1st (or potentially 2nd).

how is that harder than having an extra week of knock out, even if it is a weaker team. And if you do win in week 1, then you have a week off and a home game the next. Switch Leeds and Catalans around, and I still think the games this week would be the same

Absolutely, that's because these games are played by players, on the field, rather than determined by mathematical formulae or finishing position.

That Leeds attack the playoff with gusto, regardless of position, is to be applauded. If all other teams attacked the playoffs with the same effort the games would be much more intense. Too many teams just happy to make up the numbers, and not just those finishing below 5th.

How do you feel about the way Leeds attack the regular season fixtures? Do you applaud that and consider it worthy of your investment in a season ticket?

Meh.

Exactly

Far more to do with the teams than the system. If (and it was possible pretty much up to the penultimate round) Leeds had pipped the Dragons to 4th, who believes it would be the Dragons and not Leeds travelling to Wigan this weekend? It's all speculation (all of it) but I certainly don't believe that.

I'd rather see Leeds do better in the regular season, but not at the expense of peaking at the right time for the play-offs.

For the record, I'd rather see the top 5 system brought back, but I still don't think 5th is an easier ride than 4th.

As for Leeds regular season performance....

If the Playoffs were 5 or 6 teams would Leeds have finished higher than 5th this year? I don't know, maybe.

If Leeds didn't have to play a WCC, CC Semi, CC Final and fit in Wakefield at home 2 days after the first Exiles game, compared to the teams around us, Saints, Catalans and Hull who didn't have to do ANY of those 4 things (Huddersfield had to do just 1, the CC Semi) and don't have the tag of beating the current SL & WCC Champions around their necks motivating the opposition especially when we travel, would we have finished higher/more points clear of those 4?.........Most definately IMO.

Have to agree with Jeff on this one. Leeds have had steady season with not that much to get the heart pumping.

It makes me wonder of our coach isn't as daft as his Neanderthalic expression portrays - ramble through the season without breaking too much of a sweat, aiming to get the 5th spot.

Beat 8th (not too hard)- beat the team that just got beaten by the top side 6 or 7 days earlier (a little harder but not a massive ask) then you're 2 games away from being Champions. Put in two top draw performances a season and your Billy Big Bollox.

You sum it up so much better .....but sadly have to agree. The present system is broke.

Credit to Leeds for taking full advantage, but anybody who invests in a season ticket is definitely being short changed.

Can they do that without exposing one of the obvious flaws in the current format? That's probably the approach they should take but it'll never happen.

The Play-Offs are supposed to represent the climax to the season and from week two/three onwards (depending on your point of view) they do but I simply cannot understand the logic behind week one.

The original top five format worked better because at least it consistently produced the Grand Final the Regular Rounds predicted it would - 1 V 2. People moaned about that but I saw it as due reward for the effort over the Regular Rounds maintaining their relevance and integrity. That system was also flawed though judging by the results as the team finishing 3rd only won 1 from 8 just as we see today from 4th. IMO it's the effect of having a second chance in your back pocket that results in a loss of focus and underperformance in week 1 leading to a loss of momentum that results in an almost automatic exit at home in week 2 to a team that finished lower but crucially one with momentum coming off a win.

That's why I'm currently favouring a top 7 format as outlined earlier in the thread over a return to the original top 5. Straight-forward knock out to ensure 100% concentration and committment to what should be the pinnacle of the season.

Week 1 - League Leaders - bye, 2 V 7, 3 V 6, 4 V 5
Week 2 - 1 V Lowest survivor, highest placed winner V next highest
Week 3 - GF