Yes and it began last season. Winning the GF from 5th merely papered over the cracks of what was an average 2011 season in the weekly rounds by Leeds' standards.

So we have declined? Or we haven't? What you originally said is we haven't worsened. Well, certainly at this point in time, we have. We're not the team we were 3/4 years ago.

Leeds may not be the team they were 3/4 years ago but they are still a million miles off being a bad side in decline. Wigan, Warrington, Catalans, Hull et al have improved vastly over the last 2 seasons and they are now reaping the fruits of their labour with their league positions. If you take a look at the table and consider your next 3 fixtures are Wakefield (H), Cas (H) and London (A), (3 winnable games in the eyes of most). 3 wins would see you right back up in the top third of the table.

I place an opinion on a forum and then you attack me personally....not my comment, and you think you're grown up?

Have a word with yourself mate!!!

That's cleared that little puzzle then

For me LOINERtillidie (primarily a dewsbury fan) is miles away from what most Leeds fans feel about the current situation.

Not accepting that other teams can be better is complete rubbish, this set of players have never won the CC and since 2004 saints, Bradford and Wigan have all won the GF.

The problem for me is knowing that this group can perform much much better than they are, we may be in decline but we are the current champions and beat manly only a few months ago, not being in the play offs at this stage off the season and getting beat at home by 50 would suggest that something is holding us back from performing to our potential.

I've spent most of my adult life supporting Leeds through a very long period where a lot of other teams were significantly better than Leeds. Not a problem with that, it's the nature of sport.

I do agree with Batley though, in that the issue at the moment isn't that other teams are better than Leeds, but that some of us saw this current situation coming a while ago. If we could, then why couldn't the highly experienced and successful sports administrator running the club?

Leeds are falling well short of the high standards they have set themselves, both on and off the field IMO.

Are you talking about the coaching staff or overall? To be fair, the financial position of the club and the quality of the academy set up is as good as its been for a good few years.

Player performance on the field, plus the recruitment and retention decisions made off it. The departures of Senior and Lauitiiti hinted at an understanding that the squad needed to be refreshed. The players brought in and subsequent contract extensions however have smacked of panic.

My opinion is that I will always accept that other teams may be better than us, and that success is usually only short term. However, it pains me to see a club not performing close to its potential.

The first team may not be but the club is performing up to it's potential. There is a large over reaction to an indifferent run of form on the field by the 1st team.

When using the expression "the club" you have to take into account many other things. The apparent rude health of the Academy at all levels at present and the excellent turnover and profit posted by the club in the face of recession.

There isn't a single club in the league that is built on firmer foundations than ours. One only has to look at our near neighbours to realise that. There's no need to over react because the first team are on a bad run of form.

Andy G, if you and others have seen our demise coming for a while when did you first see it? Was last year's title, CC Final and this years WCC within your vision?

There were signs in 2010 that the team was no longer as dominant as it had been during 2007-09, and that Warrington and Wigan in particular were starting to get Leeds's number. The consistently high level of performance that marked out that period became less frequent in 2011, spankings home and away from both Warrington and Saints, then at home to Huddersfield and Bradford in particular raising alarm bells.

The Challenge Cup run in 2011 was hardly indicative of a champion team returning to form, take a look at the standard of opposition. That Leeds needed extra time to see off a mediocre Cas side says little to support your point.

The team managed to buck the trend for the last half dozen games of the season and capitalise on some fortune in the Grand Final. Well done to them for that but it doesn't disguise the fact that over the season as a whole they were now well behind the likes of Wigan, Warrington, Saints and Huddersfield in terms of consistency and quality of performance.

That decline has continued in 2012. Using a home game against a woefully under prepared Manly as evidence of a return to form is a poor attempt at supporting your point. If you want to take games in isolation, why not look at Good Friday, or the games against Saints? Were those games not indicative of a team on the slide falling way behind its rivals?

I know you know and understand the sport G1, are you seriously telling me that you couldn't see over the last 12-18 months the cracks starting to appear in this Leeds side? Did you regard 5th as somehow unrepresentative of the levels of performance last year, and 9th as unrepresentative of them in 2012?

If you are used to drinking champagne a pint of mild is a bit of a come down, and people will grumble.

This is true those though alarm bells sounded a little hollow come season's when it became more universally accepted that the team had simply taken a little time to gel with the new coaches strategies. The alarm bells sound a little louder right now, I'll give you that.

The purpose of the Challenge Cup is to reach the final and win it. There are no extra medals handed out for style points. The team was good enough to reach the final, not quite good enough to win it.

Is a very dismissive way of belittling quite a fantastic achievement. Nor is it accurate. In league and playoff terms it might have been better had you said that Leeds went the last three months of the season losing only once, defeating three teams above them in the league in the playoffs. When it mattered Leeds showed far greater consistency and quality of performance than any of the four teams that finished above them in the league.

Because there wasn't a World Club Championship Trophy up for grabs in any of those other fixtures. I was at the manly game and it was as hard a game and as good an opposition as I've seen this season. The Manly game is indicative that the team remains ahead of it's rivals because none of the team's rivals had achieved the requisite right to play in the game. leeds had.

I think we both understand the sport Andy. We understand another sport, American Football. In that sport are any of the pundits, supporters or players talking about the Champion New York Giants in the same terms that you are talking about Leeds? Can you see the parallels? With two weeks to go, they weren't even in playoff contention. They finished 9-7 and even lost twice to the dreadful Washington Redskins. But they qualified and played well when it mattered, unlike all their rivals. That is the goal. That is the goal in our sport. We met the goal last year. Nobody else did.

Do I recognise that the team is not performing consistently well week in week out as they did in 2009 when topping the league? Of course, it's inescapable. But i also recognise they're good enough on their day to win this competition, despite that. And that will do for me.

I see no demise. I see over reaction to a poor run of form and a set of supporters with very short memories who haven't learned the lessons from just last season. It's nothing new. We've seen it from the same characters during Smith's tenure and even Mclenanns. Of course, the predictable doom mongerers will one day proclaim they were right when this cycle of success comes to an end (I don't include you in that company, even though our outlooks are different I respect your opinion) but they were never right. They were just miserable feckers unable to appreciate or recognize the halcyon period that this administration and set of players have delivered for us.

They're just as bad as the ones that will over react when we string a good run of form together. It's during this period of demise you have seen coming that we've had threads like "Leeds Greatest ever squad", "The best young centre pairing in the comp" and a couple of "will we go the season undefeated" threads.