Agree with just about all of this, expect I think 1-2 players is short sighted considering the position we were in with age, performance, and contracts. You are entirely correct under normal circumstances however.




And then I dissagree with this. 2 or 3 of those players do not have plenty in the tank, IMO, and more of a worry is the reliance upon certain ones.



And then I think you make a good point again. But we need to be realistic, and if we lose this weekend we will finish 6th, which is just about what our peformance levels deserve. We certainly haven't been as good a team as Huddersfield this season, for example, if we are been honest. I don't think the team suffered for having emphasis on the other two comps, although they may not have helped. Same as I don't think injuries can be our excuse because we only have to look at Saints there.

The problem I see, and make no mistake about it, Crusaders will only get better now in future seasons, and the Bulls will be much better next season than this. We will not be able to put in the same performance levels next year and make top 6, let alone have a chance on the final weekend of making top 4.

this squad of players have won 3 grand finals in a row, and are in a decent position to get to another one this year and have been in the challenge cup final. They have had a good season.

This year they havent been as good as they were last year, but not by miles, Wigan and Warrington have been much better than they were last year and that gives the illusion that we have regressed much much more than we have.

Also i think some of the tertiary players, Kirke, JJB, Kylie, and Smith havent hit the levels this year they have in previous years.

But i cant see anything wrong with the spine of the side and the progression plans already in place. Webb, Sinfield, Mcguire, Burrow, Diskin are being Shadowed and will over the next couple of years begin to pushed by the younger players we have in reserve or out on loan.

Where i think we have struggled is firstly injuries have knocked us off our stride, many games i have watched this year and thought we looked inches away from it clicking, defensive and offensive patterns take time to build, Burrow has been missing for long periods meaning our defence on that side has suffered, its not all down to Senior.

The bigger worry is take away Peacock, which will happen more and more over the next few years, and we are completely over-run in the middle of the park by the better teams. Ambler is coming along nicely imo, and Pitts will likely get much more game time next year, but asking either of them at a very young age to be a pack leader like Peacock is a massive massive ask. If Eastwood does go then i think we need to bring in another top quality prop. When we can compete up front we will win a lot more than we lose, our backs are probably the best in the league, and certainly imo the most dangerous in broken play

Thoughts on Staurday for what they're worth...

Warrington were superb in all departments (certainly by comparison to us), well coached by a good coach who came up with a perfect game plan for the referee, the opponents (including their injury problems), and the conditions. Credit where credit is due, we would have needed a fully fit squad/team and to have been at the very top of our game. Sadly I don't think either applied on Saturday. What follows is in no way an attempt to detract from Warrington's achievements - they were the better team, and fully deserved their win - we'll get over it.

Injuries - we sorely missed JP (and Burgess would have helped as well). We just could not match them in defence. They made us earn every inch on Saturday and then found they could make too many easy yards up the middle around the ruck. Three hookers playing on the back of a very dominent forward pack - you don't need to be a rocket scientist...

We need to polish up some of our core skills - it probably doesn't need saying under the circumstances but held up over the line three times is a sin. Another point. Seen it mentioned elsewhere and that is that Warrington played the game just as Silverwood was prepared to let them, (as Melbourne did in the WCC). They slowed us down all day and this gave them all the time to get their defence sorted out and cut down our options. They also stretched the offside parameter to it's limit as well. We on the other hand seem to be a little naiive in this. We tend to get off the tackle as soon as the ref calls move/held. It may wind opposition fans up to see our players (Senior in particular), leaning over the tackle looking at the referee to see when he's going to call it but all teams do exactly the same. Other teams however are better at gaining extra time before the call is made. I have heard it staright from Leeds staff that they aren't into all the wrestling at the PTB (claiming that they seem to get penalised more when they try). However. we clearly need to look at what teams like Warrington, Wigan and Huddersfield are doing differently to us because they can slow us down with impunity and currently we get penalised for trying to do the same. This is not an attempt to whinge about other teams dastardly tactics - it's just how it is. We need to improve in that department.

Silverwood - HE DID NOT COST US THE GAME ON SATURDAY - there are plenty of reasons that happened and some have been highlighted here and the rest can be found in other threads. However, what really p*$s*d me off about his performance on Saturday was that he did rob us of potentially one of the best finals in years. As I said ealrier, he allowed Warrington to murder us at the PTB. To have any hope on Saturday (especially with the team we had available - individual selections notwithstanding), we needed to get quick PTB and try and run them ragged. We just never got a sniff. In fact, there were times I thought we did quite well given how much they were able to dominate us round the ruck (JJB's audacious pass in the first half probably the best example).
However, he effectively killed us, and the game, stone dead with two decisions in the first half. The forward pass to Hall - if it was forward it can only have been milimetres at most (compare to the pass that put Smith in at the end). The pass was flat and a lovely piece of play. Then we had Atkins second try. I know we should have defended his run better from the PTB (Hall and Kirke the guilty parties), but FFS, Silverwood was running towards Mathers when it hit him on the and how he missed that I have no idea. 8-6 at half time and we have the prospect of a real game in the second half rather than Warringtin just having to soak up the pressure and waiting till we ran out of steam.

Burrow's defence at the start of the second half was unbelievable but how many will remember it in the context of the game we saw on Saturday - all we will remember is how well Mathers went instead (and for what it's worth Mathers should be remebered for how well he went defensively - he was brilliant.)


This season has shades of 2005 all over it - we get to the CC Final and disaster strikes just before hand, effectively writing off our season. Heard a few people on the way out of Wembley saying "we'll get them in the GF..." I don't know what they were on at the time but I wish I could have shared some once I got back home Sat evening, believe me.

I have no problems with the result - Warrington were the better team and fully deserved the win. I went down thinking we were going to struggle but that we had a chance. If I'd known Silverwood was going to turn into such a one sided procession I'd have stayed at home. We weren't good but I don't think we deserved the game we got.

Next year needs to be a season of assessment - we need to look at where we need to strengthen the squad because there are players that are getting past their sell by dates. We need to see some more of the youngsters and we need to assess just who needs to stay and guide them. A year of rebuilding for me next year.


Apologies for the length of this diatrible but I don't bother posting very often on here...

I have had this argument many times this season. This team is nothing like the team we had in 2005. This team does not even come close to the team we had in 2005. Regardless of that side losing two finals, it was a joy to watch and an extremely good side.



We haven't played Wigan and Warrington each week, only 4 times just like last year. Infact our results against Wire are better this year than last in the league. The league position is irrelevant and IMO not a measurement of where we are this year.

What is relevant is performance and quality shown. In that regard we are a million miles away from last year. The very reason why I for one have continually stated that this season is not a blip, but a downward trend.

Would not entirely disagree with you but do feel that there is more improved competition than there was in 2005 - it's not just Wigan and Warrington that have improved over the last couple of seasons.

The backline of Leeds have still got it and minus Senior will still have it for another 2/3 years.

Its the front row that needs a shake up imo. There is no doubt about it that if you give the Likes of Burrow, McGuire, Webb, Smith and Hall space to play with they will rip the opposition apart.

The pack has let us down massively this year. Every week somebody says on Tvocs stat thread 'what would we do without JP' well on Saturday we found out. Look at our props apart from JP who gives us good yardage? Answer is nobody. The props are pretty mediocre. The 2nd rowers have an element of class in them. But they rely on the props to get them on the front foot a little.

The squad aint a bad one at all. There is just one missing piece in the jigsaw and that is a powerful hard running prop to pair with JP and the bit of work Kylie is doing. Look at Saints, they wanted to take a bit of heat of Graham so they signed Josh Perry. Job done. What a signing. With the cap space left by Eastwood and Donald Leeds really need to bring in a good prop. You don't even have to look overseas. There is plenty in the 'lesser' sides than can do a job for Leeds and will jump at the opportunity.

Neither really.

Do I have concerns?

Yes - mainly that we need to find someone to share the workload with JP next year, and take on the role in the coming years.

Do I suscribe to the opinion that this set of players are done?

No - they are 3 time Champions, have beaten all the top sides this year and over the last 4 years have played more games than anyone else, except maybe Saints. There is plenty left in this squad.

Do I think Delaney is the worst signing we have ever made, a poor player and not fit for the Champions?

No

Do I think we should panic and turn Lee Smith into a stand off?

No

Do I think Rob Burrow should be released because he's no longer good enough?

No - although he has had a poor year

Do I think Danny Buderus is a waste of money?

No

Do I think Ian Kirke should be put in stocks outside Leeds Town Hall because he missed a tackle?

No

Basically, I trust Gary Hetherington to make decisions which will benefit the club in the short and long term. I have watched Leeds for long enough to know that this set of players are very special. I don't always agree with decisions that are made but I'm not stupid enough to think that I always know better than people involved at the highest level.

Whilst we havent played Wigan and Warrington every week, Wigan and Warringtons improvement and consistancy is the reason they are top of the league and we are further back, had they not improved so much we would likely still be challenging for top spot and i doubt we would be having this conversation.

And as i said we arent as good as last year, but many things have worked against us to exaggerate the difference. This is a team game and issues we have suffered as a team have affected the form of individuals and it becomes a bit of spiral.

I still think the spine of the team as good as any in SL, and there isnt major surgery that is needed. I think we need to look at the front row as i said, and maybe the 2nd row could be a bit fresher, but we get that in place and im sure we will see Kirke, JJB, Smith, Burrow etc looking much much better, we seem to be trying to do what we did against tired teams before we have bothered to tire them out, thats our problem

Some of that will be in Lee Smith's back pocket for sure

It would not be if every team were the same as this year - the problem is most sides have strengthened - Leeds on the other hand look a weaker side with a crop of players all ageing together.

All clubs have had similar injury problems to Leeds so I think that is a red herring. The league position reflects the performances this year which - in the main - have been uninspiring. The way Wigan dominated the Rhinos at Headingley showed the gulf between the two sides and the less said about Saturday the better, let's put it down to an off day.

The writing is on the wall - failure to strengthen and signing the likes of Ali, Senior, Kylie, Diskin suggests priorities for 2011 lie elsewhere. Given the better squads at Wigan, Saints and Warrington I fail to see how this ageing squad can be expected to compete at the real top level next season.

I thought this was a very strong squad for this year - but I was proved wrong.

It's inaccurate to suggest that the club have made no changes during the last couple of seasons. Perhaps someone can list those newcomers that played well on Saturday (some of them world class) or, failing that, explain to me how further signings of similar quality would have made a difference on Saturday (unless at least one of them happened to be a barnstorming prop).

Just taking these two quotes, I agree with Gotcha and I disagree with slim. I think 2005 was the strongest year ever at the top of Super League in that we had three of the best ever SL teams. Leeds were World Club Champions and at the start of that season they played IMO the best rugby ever seen in SL. I remember going to watch Warrington play at Headingley and seeing us getting played off the park, and this was not a bad Warrington team, we had Gleeson in his prime and Fa'afili who scored shedloads of tries that year and we finished 4th in the league. We got destroyed by Leeds by the best display of offloading I can remember. Right in the first minute, Leeds got awarded a penalty straight in front of the posts, Sinfield just demanded the ball and tapped and ran it straight away, there was no way he was going to waste time kicking for two. For one spell in the game, every tackle we made even with 2/3 men in the tackle, the ball came out somehow and went to hand, and there was an inevitability that Leeds would work their way up the field and finish off with a try, they were just clinical and ruthless but played great rugby as well. The South Stand started singing "thats why we're champions" and the people round me in the Wire end were all pretty much in agreement with them. I remember looking on this forum after the match and seeing someone say that in all his years of watching Leeds he'd never seen rugby like this and he had to thank Tony Smith for bringing it. Now we are saying the same thing about Smith in Warrington.

But also in SL that year you had Bradford in the second half of the year who were unstoppable, with Hape and Vainikolo scoring 4 tries a game between them, and they had Peacock, Pryce and also Morley at the end of the season. And Saints finished top of the league with Cunningham having possibly his most consistent season and Jamie Lyon in his first year when he was Man of Steel. Wire were 4th but we were a million miles behind the top three in terms of class.

I don't think in recent years SL has been anything like as competitive at the top end, although the middle-lower end has toughened up compared to where it was in 2005 with sides like Leigh and Widnes who were easy meat. The three clubs at the top have all gone into decline from where they were in 05, with Bradford it was dramatic, with Saints they won the double in 2006 but after that they slipped a bit, still strong but not quite what they were. I would say the same about Leeds, even though they've won three Grand Finals in a row I'd say its been a consequence of Leeds holding fairly steady whilst other top teams have slipped. I would fancy Leeds team in 04-05 to have beaten the team of 08-10 any day. I'm not trying to denigrate Leeds achievements since 2007, they have still been the best team, but I think Leeds have cashed in on a slip at the top end of SL and won three Grand Finals out of it. All in all I think if you had put any of the Leeds Grand Final winning teams of 2007-2009 in the 2005 season they would have finished 4th.

You could also say the same thing about Warrington cashing in with two Challenge Cups, if this current Warrington team had been around in 04-06 sort of era, then it would have made the top end of SL incredibly tough, but I don't think we would have won any trophies.

They wouldn't. Saturday was the the result of 3 things:

1, bad day at the office

2, Expossed in the front row. (the barnstorming prop)

3, Warrington we're red hot. They played the best they will do for a long time and they had an element of luck on there side - Bounce of the ball, a couple of ref decisions. How many times did we get over the line and not score? The rugby gods we're on their side alright.

Who are Sinfield, Burrow and McGuire being "shadowed" by?

Clarkson and Ward for LF and SO, There doesnt seem to be a replacement for Burrow at the club, but Mcguire can play there and we are a good 4 or 5 years from needing to replace them