No I think you're right. No Parcell and we aren't top 4 that's for sure. Certainly top 8. But not in the play off picture.

Throw in cross/falloon

imports are difficult to judge to be fair.
it's more his lack of recruitment in last 2 years that's an issue

For mine, the biggest sin that the club have committed is the apparent failure to prepare a robust succession plan to account for the fading away of the " Golden Generation". Nearly 2 years on from the loss of Sinny and Peacock we are still talking about the hole that their leaving has left at the club and we are about to lose a few more. What ever else can be said about GH (and there is lots to say that is +ve) This has not been a smooth transition period. Still we finished second and made both semis so compared to last year this season has been a triumph

Foresight rather than hindsight. They'll be some on here who are still sat on the fence on Vickery and think there could be a quality half on the squad fringes.



He's OK as proper hookers go but he's no Rob Burrow.

Gotcha - what we saw from 2012 to 2015 was either the most successful 4-year period in the history of the club or the second. So what point are you trying to make - that wholesale changes should have been made in 2011? If so, hindsight shows that until 2015 the club got it spot on.

For 2016 before the season started many people (me included) were willing to give the club the benefit of the doubt with Sutcliffe at 6, Ferres coming in, Falloon etc. With the benefit of hindsight we can say that was probably not the right decision.

What really surprised me is the complete lack of activity for this season. We're second but light years behind Cas and got thumped in the one big game we've played this year. If Wigan and/or Sts had been better for longer periods we'd have struggled for 4th with Hull. It may all come right in the end, but I think we've got very lucky to be second.

Looking forward I'm quite positive about Myler and Dwyer as at the least its drawing a firm line in the sand in key positions. What I am very concerned about is that no less than 6 of our pack (Galloway, Cuthbertson, Ablett, Deleany, Ferres and JJB) are over 30 and only going to deteriorate with another year on the clock, and its not as if they're running rampant today. That's more than the old Northern pack of Peter Fox days, and the sport is far more dynamic than it was then, and yet there seems to be little appetite to even start revamping.

My other concern can more squarely be put on the coach - our complete inability to make full use of the two proven class backs we have in Hall and Watkins. That is partly down to players we have, but is also a lot to do with lack of planned ways to get them the ball where it hurts, and is easily the most obvious difference between us and Cas.

This is one of the most balanced and sensible posts I've read on here in a while...it's just not right can we please add some hyperbole, everything is either the best thing ever or we're doomed.

I've been saying to folk all season...can you imagine how devestating Watkins and Hall would be in Cas' team/structure. When you compare how much their players work off the ball in attack to get numbers etc to our "off the cuff" attack it's embarrassing...and that's purely a coaching matter.

I can assure you, nobody has the hindsight to see 2017 in 2011. Even if they had the foresight, they wouldnt realistically have improved our performances in 2011 to 2015.

we had a bad season in 2016 but are 2nd right now. The club have and continue to prove you wrong.

Id accept an argument that says the quality of the league has fallen, and we arent the quality a side who are second should be. But it makes no sense for me to argue we are lucky to be 2nd. I don't think we are. I think Saints and Wigan are as bad as they have been.

As for Cas, they have been great this season, and very consistent, but people pretend like this was expected. But this is largely the same side that have been mid-table for the past 4 years. I dont think anyone would have bet on them putting this year together as they have, I dont even expect them to be able to do it next year in the same way. If Cas are the same side they have been for the past 4 years we are top of the league right now.

I think there is a problem Leeds fans have in judging our performances. That is that over the last 10 or so years the standard of the league has fallen. Over the past 4 or so years that fall has been precipitous. If Leeds were standing still that would be an amazing job, but we arent, we are going backwards too. Its hard to square the club doing a good job with the standard going backwards because it leaves us in a position where an inferior squad as we have that has simply regressed less than others, is good.



I have to agree that we havent and dont make the most of Hall as a winger and as a fan its frustrating to see him used as an extra prop, but he is very good at it and (whisper it) it works. Watkins too, can be an excitement machine, he is skillful, physical, he has it all. To see him used as he doing the defensive work of three is frustrating and needs to be resolved but that may not be available with the personel we have?

I too look forward to seeing Myler whose speed in the middle and support play we have been missing since Mags legs went and i think will make a huge difference to how we play. Dwyer too is a good signing for me. Will allow us to rest Parcell, and is sort of a Burrow-lite in that he gives plenty around the ruck and speed and dynamism but no-one can match Burrow in that regard, Dwyer however is a far better defender.

With regards to the pack, i dont think individually any stand out as 'done' however as a group they lack speed and dynamism. I have to say though that Stevie Ward last season and the middle to end of this season is a real stand out who is hitting the line hard, fast and with great hands. His passing is giving us another option and we are seeing another year on the clock for all those you mention, its also another year under the belt for the likes of Cam Smith, JJR, Oledzeki

I get and agree that us and others are lucky somewhat that Wigan have been injury hit. I don't get the bit about Saints though, pretty much been where I thought they'd be, no fortune at all involved us being above them imo.

Saints early season were more injury hit than anyone has been. Never really recovered from it.

That is exactly the point made, how something so simple can be so simply misunderstood and misconstrued. It happens on here all the time.

Can posters really not see a difference between succession planning and wholesale changes? It mistifies me, how people can not understand a difference. The succession planning point was what I responded to, and the very point mentioned back in 2011. Wholesale changes are simply something put out to go against it.

Time for Leeds to make him a marquee player.

No they weren't at all. They had a couple out like most teams but definitely not anything major. Marty Smith missed the start of the year but even on his return he's been a big disappointment and Saints fans argue that he's been their worst signing in a long time.

And they did recover from their start as they were in pole position for a playoff spot after beating Cas week 1 of the 8's, they then lost the next 3 which have left them relying on others losing. They win those 3 they'd be 2nd right now so completely wrong to blame the start.