Even you have to admit Catalans have a much better side this year than last and Leeds are at best level with where they are last year. Leeds only just beat Catalans at home thanks to a brain explosion in the last minute and weren't good enough when it really mattered. Both games saw Catalans travelling!! The point you still will not address is Leeds didn't beat a top 6 side from May onwards in SL.

The reason McDermott thought he needed to rest them was because of the flogging he had already given them - the Saints game when Moon got sent off showed his true colours when he left two youngsters on the bench despite being down to 12.

On injuries - Delanney is injured now no youngsters how likely is it that we will have 2/3 forwards out at the same time, I would say unlikely.

If Delanney is fit back row is JJB, Ablett and Cuthbertson bench is two props possibly three against the bigger sides and a rotating hooker if its two props a rotating hooker and Sutcliffe how does Ward fit into that?

Yeah and we thrashed them last year too. That game saw us travelling!!

Yes they did do us in the playoffs, but we were dreadful and we still almost beat them barring that dropped pass. In the league game we were missing a load of players like Hardaker, Sinfield, Burrow, Leuluai, JJB, Kirke, Clarkson.



They did in the CC but apparently playing top 6 sides in knockout games doesn't count just like having the best defence over a whole season is apparently not important.

Other chances to beat a top 6 side from May onwards? Again silly red cards cost us vs Cas and Saints and we got pipped by Hudds when we had several guys missing including Hardaker, McGuire, Burrow, Aiton, JJB, Ablett, Achurch



Or because he knew it could well be their last chance to win the CC and didn't want them picking up a knock the week before.



Yet happened last year as I pointed out above with the guys missing for the Catalans and Hudds games. What about the Wakey game when we had no Hardaker, Sinfield, Burrow, Leuluai, JJB, Ablett, Kirke, Clarkson, Achurch.

So how likely is it to have 2/3 forwards plus some other guys out missing at the same time? I, and pretty much anybody who follows SL would say very likely as the year goes on. How do you think Minchella, Walters, Foster, Mulhern got debuts in the first place.



A three prop bench? With our options? How do we achieve that? Singleton, Yates and Mulhern?



He may not and it could be a battle to make the 17 at times but I don't think Sutcliffe is guaranteed to make the bench if Ward is playing well. He was very hit and miss last season especially around the CC time where Sutcliffe got the last bench spot.

However you said Ward wouldn't make the 19? Looking at our 24 man squad, which is realistically 22 man squad when you consider Keinhorst and R.Ward will only play if injuries in their positions and also the young like Walters and Minchella who you said McDermott won't want to pick then how does Ward not make the 19 most weeks?

With you there is always some excuse as to why they didn't perform in games:

Injuries, no team had more injuries to key players for longer periods than Saints yet they still managed to finish top of the league and win the competition. You make no allowance for injuries to key players in other sides contributing to Leeds winning games.

Sendings Off - As Widnes showed on Thursday a sending off doesn't have to result in a defeat and against Saints if McDermott had rotated his bench better given the injury-hit make up of their side Leeds should still have won.

CC - the root of all Leeds' problems in SL last year if only they hadn't won that they would have won the GF.

Defence - they attack doesn't need to be unto much because the defence was excellent - the lack of attack is one of the reasons we failed to win games we should have, once you go behind you haven't got the plays and mindset to reverse the position. In terms of points scored Leeds were seventh over 100 points behind all the teams above them in the table - perhaps this had a greater influence on where they finished in the table than their points against?

Sometime you just have to admit they weren't good enough. Sixth was a fair reflection of how well Leeds played last year.

On Ward I said he would not make the 17 not that he would not make the 19. If Leeds are at full strength he will not make the 17 no way he is going to get selected ahead of JJB/Ablett and Delanney. Against the bigger sides either Delanney or JJB will used as prop or Achurch will play. My point is Ward has been the best young player in pre-season yet McDermott would have picked Delanney ahead of him if fit without any pre-season games. What chance have the other youngsters got of ever establishing themselves when you have a coach with McDermott's mentality. Golding is another very good in pre-season but he isn't going to get selected ahead of Hardaker, who played terribly in the one pre-season game he attended.

Sutcliffe has to play he is our only up and coming half back - for the good of the longer term he has gain game experience unless McDermott has other ideas.

Mr Paradise are you seriously suggesting that because Golding played well in a couple of pre-season games he should be picked ahead of Hardaker?

What I am saying is how do kids get a chance to break into the first team? Are injuries their only chance? What more can Golding do to get a chance of playing in the first team? wait until Hardaker has another brain explosion or gets injured or signs for Wigan? With this coach no matter how well Golding plays in the limited opportunities he gets he has zero chance of getting selected i.e. the coach picks on reputation/loyalty and not on form. Could the likes of Mulhern contributed less than Kirke or Bailey? unlikely but Mulhern played 3 times, Kirke 18 times and Bailey 21 times that is this coach's mentality.

So you are saying he should be picked ahead of Hardaker?

I would be happy with that, Hull KR are not St Helens so it should be a good game for a youngster to start. Wigan don't have these scruples about young players I can see McDermott's reticence but sadly that reticence isn't around form. I am not as big a Hardaker fan as many on here so I would not go into a decline like many on here if he weren't selected. Golding is a real prospect, how does he develop, Sinfield, Burrow, McGuire, JJB etc didn't need stints in lower league football to emerge they learned their trade in the first team. I suspect Hardaker will be off at the end of this season so if he plays all year you have lost a year's development in Golding.

Not excuses but highlighting why it's erroneous to point at some games at the end of the year and say that's what the future holds for this team for the following year when we aren't going to be playing with 12 men for 60 mins every week or resting a load of starters or playing dead rubbers like the Hull game.



Possibly, possibly not. Do think we'd have got the LLS without the cup distraction. Answer these 2 simple question with only a YES or NO.

If Leeds got knocked out of the CC back in April to Saints then do you think we'd have gone on that 6 game losing streak at the end of the year?

If Saints beat us in the cup and went on to Wembley do you think they'd have won the LLS?

I think I know what 98% of people would answer to those questions.



Oh, I and everyone on here agree the attack needs to improve. My original point was no one was really mentioning the defence, which IF it can perform similarly to last year gives us a strong chance to make the top 4. Would you not agree if we are around the fewest points conceders again then we have a good CHANCE of making the 4?



Page 3 you wrote....



So seems you did say that.



Yes and last season Ward missed all of pre-season and the season opener yet came off the bench after not playing for around 9 months and played quite a lot of minutes vs Warrington in Round 2 and then started the next 3 games at 2nd row vs Catalans, Hudds and Widnes so he got the same rub of the green you're now saying he'll suffer from. And whilst the likes of Singleton, Achurch, McShane, Hood, Clarkson, Moore etc. have all suffered from McDermott's 5 mins or less usage of them off the bench, the same can't really be said of Ward. When he's been named a sub he always usually gotten good minutes from what I recall.



It is going to be tough but even Shaun Wane said last week that because of the new structure he isn't going to be picking young players as much now as he can't afford to so it's going to happen across the board more.



I hope Ward makes the bench over Sutcliffe. When Sutcliffe was coming off the bench was he really playing halfback? No so wasted really. If Sutcliffe makes the bench it should be in place of Aiton with him coming on for Burrow and Sinfield switching to 9.

Jesus, we've not even played the 1st game of the season and people are already on the coach's back for not dropping SL's best fullback to make way for a kid who had good games against 2nd division opposition in pre-season friendlies. This place never ceases to amaze me

Expectations getting adjusted in a downward direction slightly after 1st half? Or are we just ring rusty?

The tackling bags will be out this week!

Looks like it was rust. On expectation, what does Huddersfield getting niled at home to Hull do for people's expectation of us not making the top 4?

Dunno. Not many people in the predictions thread had Huddersfield in the top 4 anyway. Catalans were a much more common choice.

and cas losing to wakey