All excellent points well made.

Many Leeds fans are currently in a pickle. Wigan achieving the 'double' which this Rhinos squad never did is a bitter pill to swallow. They'd rather like to rubbish Wigan's achievements this season - like winning SL from 4th and then pointing at Wigan fans hypocrisy over criticising the system last year and the year before. But they are unable to do that with any conviction having ascribed so much greatness to Leeds two SL titles from the more lamentably orchestrated 5th placed finish.

The only thing they are left with is to either bite the bullet and congratulate Wigan's playing of the system (just like Leeds have done in the recent past) or, if that's too hard to stomach, they can choose to belittle the Wigan CC triumph as the consequence of an easy draw.

The system and format is currently broken. It'll be interesting to see what happens this week as there's an emergency meeting of SL clubs led by your chairman to be held tonight to discuss a breakaway and a no-confidence vote in the RFL, a mere two days before the RFL were to announce big changes in structure.

Quite correct the system is in a real mess.

You are correct about Wigan's easy CC draw. That is the problem with cups - too much luck involved. And my point last year which i haven't really changed is that the playoff system also involves too many variables. It's a short competition, one poor game in the semi and you're out, surely it would be better to call the team that finishes top over 26 (not 27) rounds the champs.

However I recognise that the Grand final is needed by the game and Sky call the tune so fair enough. We need to reward first and second place - just like in the 5 or 6 teams playoffs - simple really. (Too simple for the RFL unfortunately)

I suppose what is galling for fans of Wigan this year and Leeds last is that the title of champs is open to debate, and there shouldn't really be any.

There's debate about the merits of the playoff in it's current format, there may be a debate about the merits of a Grand Final as opposed to first past post (though not much of one) but there's absolutely no debate at all about who is the champions. It's whoever wins the championship each year by the pre defined measure. Wigan this year, Leeds last.

I've said before, I'd take away the plate all together. Make people recognise that the season is a qualifying phase. Now, as has rightly been stated, that makes the regular season harder to sell but making the games more competetive would be a start and that is really a different discussion.

I know what you mean and I'd agree.

But I'm sorry there has been a lot of debate about who the champs are this year, last year ever since the frankly ridiculous idea of having 8 teams out of a 14 team league qualifying for playoffs. I'd love a team to win it from 8th. It would make the whole shooting match untenable. Just because you think that the GF winners are or have been worthy champs doesn't mean there isn't debate about it.

If you think arguing with people who say black is white constitutes debate then, yes, there's debate.

However, the champions have to acheive a set objective. It's not subjective.

By the way, I would personally love a team for 8th to win it. I think it would validate the system. If every team attacked the playoffs the way Wigan have this year and Leeds before then we would have a fantastic playoff series.

Nobody in the NRL cares where the champions finish the season. Nobody in the NFL does. It's wierd that some in Rugby League do because, after all, apart from a very breif period in our history, some 25 years roughly, it's the way we have ALWAYS decided our champions.

Leeds played up "full"strength in Round 27 because they were giving game time to long term injured who were returning

Leeds played up "full"strength in Round 27 because they were giving game time to long term injured who were returning

Before Leeds won the GF in 2011 I don't recall there being much, if any, discontent with the winners of the GF being crowned Champions.

After being knocked out, it was Warrington fans who set the ball rolling on the whole 'the team that comes first are the true Champions'. Alot of Warrington fans had convinced themselves that all Warrington had to do was turn up for the play off games and the title would be theirs. They thought they were so much better than any other team. A few hundred Warrington fans had already purchased tickets for the GF, wrongly believing that Leeds would pose no threat. The heart break of losing that game deeply affected alot of them.

Warrington fans started this whole 'play offs are wrong' bandwaggon, then surprise surprise - Wigan fans joined in, they have a long standing tradition of slating the RFL, the game in general etc when their team aren't winning everything.

The bottom line, when your club isn't performing on the pitch, when your club are not performing off the pitch - the RFL, the Play Offs or Leeds aren't always to blame. Look a bit closer to home.

a great post

as you say wigan got an easy cup run. not your fault its luck. next year you get warrington or leeds away in round 1 and your out. thats what makes cups great.

as for the GF the rules are there for all. the team who win the grand final are champions. other clubs fans will moan when they lose but we all know the score.

Yes, being unable to not do the GF and CC double is a bitter pill to swallow, given that a few other clubs seem to be able to manage it.

I ease the pain by thinking about the World Club Challenge and Grand Final double which, so far, only one club has managed. And managed it twice.

Obviously I'm delighted that Wigan have won it this year and no doubt you were when Leeds did last year.

But if a team won it from 8th surely it would render the whole league season meaningless and useless. Why bother at all? Why take 27 games to find the best 8 from 14?

I feel that we are arguing around in circles here. I want the champion team to be decided from a season that has all matches meaningful, each team playing the other equally and less reliance on luck which cup competitions have.

I have come on here to argue the point again because Leeds fans think that because Wigan have won it this season people like me will change our views (presumably because we are stupid and fickle). But I haven't changed my view that Leeds weren't true Champions last year - and if that means that Wigan aren't this year then so be it. Consistency of argument demands that I at least acknowledge that.

Arguing that a team coming 8th can be champions in a 14 team league is pure madness (no offence intended).

The current play-off system assumes that every team in the league wants to finish as high as they possibly can.

This is not the case - Wigan played the system beautifully this season, getting high enough in the early rounds to be in the mix, resting players and timing their peak at exactly the right time. If they wanted to win the LLC and be crowned "true" champions they would have approached the latter part of the season with the same gusto that they did in the start of the year.

Spot on and full marks to Shaun Wane for learning from his mistakes last year. It just doesn't serve the game well to have this state of affairs where teams don't care where they finish in the league. Ultimately it is cheating the paying public.

Although I agree with play-offs the current system is massively flawed. There is little or no reward for finishing top - I agree with the previous poster who suggested that finishing top gives you a spot in the GF. This way the incentive to go all out all season would be hugely increased.