Catch 22 - they can never prove themselves until Sinfield releases the responsibility, Sinfield will not release the responsibility until the prove themselves?

Only on a Leeds board could everything come back to being the fault of the most successful captain in the clubs history.

Only on a Leeds board is this one player beyond any form of questioning. Anybody would think he did it all by himself. I am staggered he isn't able to do a Dynamo down the River Aire they way some on here talk about him.

2013 was by far his worst season in a Leeds shirt - he cannot play forever - although some on here appear to think he can. If the club is to transcend this era then a succession plan needs to starting to take shape. His is 33 years old, his defensive frailties were exposed last season. I for one cannot see that happening at the moment especially if Sutcliffe is farmed out to London or Wakey.

The club has issues to address. Sinfield as playmaker is nowhere near the top of the list.

Over the last 30 years of supporting Leeds I have seen many great players take the captains armband, Some have been better than others in different ways. Kevin Sinfield has been the greatest Captain this club has ever had for one reason only, His leadership and professionalism on and off the field. He has never been the Fastest, Biggest or most skillfull but his ability to lead a team around the pitch is second to none.
He didn't have his best year last time around but to say he needs to step aside after one average season is way off the mark. Sutcliffe is a very good young player and will only get better by playing alongside players like Sir Kev and Danny Mags. Perhaps the biggest obstacle in young Sutty's way is the coach who blindly picks his favourite players every week regardless of injury and form.
Im a big fan of playing youth and also a big fan of the ALL the players who have brought us the success that we have witnessed in the last decade, Im hoping our trusted coach is capable of integrating the two together.
I can only live in hope, but will continue to support the team I love and that includes every member of the squad, unlike certain posters on here that have agenda's against certain players.


On a side note what position did Sir Kev play for England, I'll give you a clue. It wasn't 6......

On this mistake that Wigan were "goosed" in 2012 and that's why we beat them.

The 17 on show in both playoff games between Wigan and Leeds in the last 2 years had made the following number of appearances (during the year in all comps.)prior to kickoff.

2012 Wigan = 412
2012 Leeds = 489

2013 Wigan = 434
2013 Leeds = 422

O'Loughlin was as big a gamble as any. Even if his Achilles injury (which is a very tricky injury) held up, he'd only played 1 game in the previous 9 weeks (and 4 in the last 19 weeks) so fitness and game speed in such a big game against a team like Warrington was a massive gamble. But some gambles pay off some don't.

If Leeds' had signed Bateman I actually think that it would be a good signing, but I was pointing out that this 'Leeds doing things all wrong, Wigan doing things all correct' approach that some have jumped all over on here (conveniently only since about 8pm on the 5th of October, I question whether they thought that after 30 mins and 16-2) isn't all as clear cut as they like to make it.

It's funny how when Leeds fans on here would point to the success the club have had over several years we had the same certain Leeds "supporters" on here telling us we were fools and that winning trophies was "papering over cracks"......suddenly now after one double success they've flipped 180 and are telling us that Wigan's triumph in winning both the main trophies in 2013 is proof that they're the team to copy.

The last few years it was Warrington that these Leeds "fans" would point to as the club we should be like. With CC wins that we couldn't get and an expectation that they'd soon lift the SL title too and the Messiah Smith in charge. With back-to-back GF failures and key leaders now departured, these Leeds "fans" needed a new club to follow (just like when Warrington took over from Saints as the club-to-be). Their new focus of emulation is Wigan....I expect in 2015/16 we'll be hearing how we should be doing things like St Helens again.

It is pretty high up there. 2014 will be an interesting year - we have the best three-quarter line up in the league, can we use it to its potential.

Maybe they did. A gentle cup run, ending with Hull putting up a dire showing. Come playoff time Leeds are physically struggling and a GF they were well behind in until the injuries to Monaghan and Ratchford.

As for those stats, if a team can claim to be goosed (even when the opposition played a lot more games) and blame that on defeat rather than they weren't good enough then let him, I'll question that.

As for they must've put too much energy and intensity into games in 2012. Well 10 wins came with 30+ points winning margins.....how many games were they actually able to play the last 20/30/40 mins going through the motions against a team that had given up? Interesting that their main aim was the LLS and "too much intensity" went into that, yet they lost both league games to their closest rivals Warrington. Let's not forget when Wane put the rookies out against Widnes and lost, was he concentrating on the LLS then?

They finished 10 points above Leeds. During the Rounds 13-17 they picked up 10 points compared to Leeds' 2 thus resulting in 8 of that 10 point difference. Over the course of 22 other games they only manage 1 win more than Leeds.

So if having a purple patch in comparison to Leeds between May 2nd & June 9th meant that couldn't regroup for a match that took place in late September then so be it. Their was several reasons why Wigan didn't win in 2012 but none of them have to do with "trying too hard throughout the regular season". It's just an excuse for those that hate the league structure to whine about instead of looking at real reasons for different teams failings.

After 18 Rounds Wigan had amassed 30pts (2012), it was 31pts in (2013). After that point Wigan only played 10 more games in all competitions in 2012 before reaching the playoffs and it wasn't like their win record was amazing (P10 W6 L4)......in 2013 they played 12 more (P12 W5 L7).

Wigan are in the fortunate position that they have a lot of quality young players who are probably at the lower end of the salary cap as Leeds were in 2004. The difficulty is as these players are more successful they will demand higher wages and the struggle will be to keep everyone happy while still winning trophies. Something Leeds have done as well as anyone, bar maybe Saints, in the salary cap era.

Perhaps people look at Wigan as in the past four season they've won trophies.
With 3 trophies a season over 4 season that's 12 opportunities to win silverware.
In that time Wigan have won 6, Warrington 3, Leeds 2 and Huddersfield 1.

Leeds have an excellent back line for 2014 and should be exciting to watch.
The pack has danger points in that it is so reliable on the exceptional Peacock.
Should he cop a knock that keeps him out for a length of time I'm not sure about the rest of the pack. Ablett is very good but the rest are not convincing. Aiton is a good signing.
GH has brought together a young, fast, skilful backline. He now has to replace the pack and halves with younger talented players.

Wigan will go into the new season with plenty cover for most if not all positions.
With Hansen recently gone it's my view that Clubb will take his place. He's a right sided player and a natural fit and his signing suggests he was signed as Hansen's successor. Bateman I'm pretty sure is a left sided player who will compete with Farrell for the place.
Wigan's play off form compared to the league ending form was due to Wane changing tactics. He only used McIlorum at 9, no Logan T therefore giving him two extra interchanges for his forwards. Flower played 13 and was on the field for long minutes in the two play off matches whilst Lockers came in for the GF. Flower again played for long periods in the GF.

It does appear that Saints have a stronger pack whilst Wigan's is young and powerful. Warrington don't have much cover from squad number 17 down with only 24 players given a number. Your prospects, like all teams, will depend on your pack. If Peacock stays fit for most of the season you have a good chance of silverware You really do need to keep that man fit!.

Erm.... if we are treating all silverware as the same, ill thank you to include our World Club Challenge as well as our glorious run in the Lazenby Cup and Hotshot Festive Challenge kind sir.

Yeah, ok!

We had one of the best last year. But there's only so much they can do from inside their own half.

I think there has been a bit of lateral thinking around coping with our aging props there: One of Briscoe's big strengths is his work from dummy half. With Hall and Briscoe now added, we have two wingers who like to run from dummy half early in the tackle count, and are effective doing so.