Quote: tad rhino "I wouldn't. Average at best'" Fair play, we are all entitled to an opinion. Broughton remains a full-time SL player whereas others such as here: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=454457 remain part-time having found a level away from the big league, even though some sought to defend his inadequate performances last season.

Quote: tad rhino "I wouldn't. Average at best'" Fair play, we are all entitled to an opinion. Broughton remains a full-time SL player whereas others such as here: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=454457 remain part-time having found a level away from the big league, even though some sought to defend his inadequate performances last season.

I'd go with McShane in the next game off the bench. He's a great threat in attack, and i don't see the issue in his defence? He can smash guy saround the field and works hard. The guys a talent and so is Liam Hood but atm i'd go with Mcshane over Hood. And when Buderus finishes that would leave us with 2 outshanding hookers which will be a massive threat to teams

Im not sure if you are asking the right question to be honest. Leeds in 2009 when Broughton wasnt offered the necessary contract had Hall, BJB, Coady, Watkins and Bush all able to play winger and had the option of contracting Scott Donald and Broughton for 2010.

Now it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that considering we already had BJB and Watkins contracted for not only 2010 but 2011 and 2012 that one or both of those two had already been earmarked for a starting wing spot in 2011 and Broughton was waiting for a place which was simply never going to open up.

Signing Broughton in 2009 would likely have meant that either he, BJB or Watkins would be getting limited game time now, 2 years later with likely a big impact on the SC as Broughton would need to be on a wage commensurate with a first team player.

The question wasnt Broughton or Donald(he was simply a stop gap) it was Broughton or BJB or Watkins.

Personally i cant see much to complain about. Smith, Bjb, Hall, Watkins are all quality back 5 players, bar Hall (who is an out and out winger) the other three offer us great versitility, all came through our youth system and IMO, will all be remembered at the end of their careers as better players than Broughton.

Fairly self evident. You mentioned it yourself earlier. BJB showed patience in earing his wing spot yesterday. He didn't get a look in at Leeds last year, like Broughton. Had Broughton not thought Salford was an appropriate level for his talents it might have been he earning the plaudits yesterday rather than BJB.

Whilst I wouldn't go as far as Tad in my assessment, I think Broughton has found his level and the market for his services when he felt he deserved a first team spot spoke for itself.

I think a few Leeds fans saw some of his tries against poor opposition last year and got over excited thinking we'd missed out on another Jason Robinson. IMO, we've retained the correct threequarters and handled them properly.

It is also evident that you are now willing to include players as alternatives to giving Broughton his chance that were either not in his way (Hall) or were not expected to be at the club in 2010 (Smith - not that you've ever really rated him anyway) or one that in your opinion did not posess the necessary skill set to hold down a place on the wing (Jones-Bishop who you saw succeeding Webb at full-back) or one that you consistently proclaim to be Keith Senior's natural successor at left centre.

Never mind the fans - most of who sadly wouldn't recognise a quality wing prospect from a Tom Bush - his tries (and his general wing play) also got the attention of his club Coach/CEO/Chairman who extended his deal by three years and the current England coach who included him in his train on squad for the quad nations.

Were the opposition really that poor where Broughton used a combination of strength, positional awareness and raw speed to finish against the likes of Wigan, St Helens, Warrington, Huddersfield, Hull, Hull KR and dare I say it Leeds? I make that tries scored against seven of the eventual top eight. They must have all been having an off day when most were smashing Salford.

That said I'm glad you've now seen the light re Jones-Bishop on the wing after a good performance V the mighty Bulls.

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Nor would it for either of them if Donald having extended his contract for 2010 did likewise for 2011.



Would Broughton have taken up the likely salary of Donald in either 2010 or 2011? Remember here we were at the time discussing the successon with Smith either rumoured to be going to Union or having already announced he was going (probably the former but the rumours were strong and as it turned out entirely accurate for once)




Why? Broughton's a winger, Watkins a centre and Jones-Bishop a full-back. Donald needed replacing, Senior will shortly and Webb could leave at the end of any given contract which at that point and currently could be at the end of this season. Not forgetting Webb had a back condition (and a sternum problem) that was proving troublesome and long-term there was no guarantee he'd make a full recovery.



Fine except Smith (at the time in question) wasn't expected to be in the picture as he is now. On the general point you may well be proved correct but it doesn't alter my view at the time that there was room for all three in a comparitively near future Leeds back division.

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On second thoughts I could have just said Leeds went out and signed Delaney. I'll do that next time as it will rationalise any mad cap scheme I could come up with for assembling a better back division.

Maybe there was room for all three, but im not sure we need to planning to keep a 21 year old winger (as Broughton was in 2009) with little to no experience as potential cover in 2 years time.

Watkins is still only 19, expecting him to have a centre birth tied up is asking a bit much, i think he needs plenty of game time this year, but next year is the first we can expect him to own that position. Having space on the wing gives us an opportunity to blood him. Similarly BJB had 3 years on his contract at that time, a huge show of faith, and Webb is and was contracted until 2012 meaning BJB also was very unlikely to own that position by this season.

Jodie Broughton is a month younger than Ryan Hall, he had his opportunities, and if he was good enough, like Hall he would have got his chances. Im all for sticking with youth, but next season we could realistically line up BJB, Hardaker, Smith, Watkins, Hall as our back five, as well as Coady in back up (though im not sure that has been as successful as hoped for) an all british back line, 4 of 5 from the academy the other signed at 19 from the championships.

Im not sure we could hope for much better, and im not sure any of our rivals would be getting close to that.

I weren't suggesting using him as cover for 2011. I had every confidence that he could replace what Donald was bringing to the table in 2009 and then some.



Re Watkins, he'll be twenty in less than a month. Obviously the knee injury pushed him back the best part of a year and that's your position now. While succession planning in 2009 and without the injury why would we be waiting until 2012? How old was Chev Walker when he became an integral member of the back division? In 2001 he played in 32 of the 33 games as a 18/19 year old.



Not sure if you're aware but G1 and I are raking over old coals in petty one-up-man-ship internet forum point scoring. While I don't presume to speak on his behalf I don't believe we're really that interested in starting from where we are now. Much more fun to recall our stated position at the time and see who if anyone was been proven to be demonstrably more accurate in our predictions.

That said your use of the 'desperate gamble' as cover is an interesting one.

I'd like to point out I personally played no part in restricting Broughton's chances to play 1st team level at leeds, that was his coaches. Luckily, the coaching guru's at Salford gave him the opportunity even if nobody else was willing to do so.

You're basing an argument on Steve McNamara's judgment? Hang on though, just like Leeds, McNamara didn't give him a jersey either.

Like I say, my opinion concurs with the coaching staff at Headingley, there were and are better options for the threequarter positions. That opinion remains.

The England coach selected Broughton for the Quad Nations train on squad from the relative obscurity of Salford (a major achievement in itself) and gave him a jersey in a warm up fixture for the tour.

Meanwhile the Headingley coaching staff promoted a part-time plumber to play 1st grade (now at York) and continued to allow Ian Kirke to steal a living so perhaps their infallibility is somewhat overstated.

Why have you suddenly become a McNamara fan?

The Engand Coach being Steve Mcnamara. I understand your reluctance to use his name in support of your argument.

Does it help or hinder your argument that Broughtons own coaches played a part time plumber now at York ahead of him?

I take your point about infalibility but Leeds aren't the only one to hold that view. It appears to have just been Salfords coaching staff who felt differently.

The lad has found his level and is doing well, good fir him. But I won't be hailing him as the Emporer's new clothes just yet.

Irrespective of the individual currently in place (whoever it is) the England coach has a much larger selection pool than any individual club coach would have and Broughton earned recognition over and above gaining selection for his club side. To stand out on the wing for Salford is in itself a considerable achievment and only enhances my argument.



Did McRae and Simms select the Leeds 1st grade team in 2010? Bush's selection (a Championship quality player at best) only helps to highlight Leeds' mistake in not securing Broughton.



Only? It may appear that way but there is no way of knowing.



I agree. That level being comfortable in SL with a good try scoring record against the top sides in his full debut season and being on the edge of International selection.

All credit to the Salford coaching staff, his game must have come on a ton.

Yes really.

I'll be honest, I don't see Salford that much. I saw them live last year. At the Willows is was another ex Leeds lad who stood out for them, and one you hold in much lower regard.

I saw them again Sunday and he stood out so much I barely noticed he was playing.

You can't keep them all and I am quite content with the ones that we HAVE kept. In recent years we've gotten it right almost all of the time and as enamoured as you and one or two others seem to be on here he has done nothing yet to change that view.

Leroy Rivett made a GB train on squad in 1999, btw.

I thought both Gibson and Broughton had decent games. Gibson impressed with his strength and determined finishing while Broughton's pace to cover a man inside and still get back to challenge Donald (Leeds' own speedster) on the line was also noteworthy, besides his try obviously which was a walk-in after Webb's fumble. He still had Delaney to get around but .... I'm not going to undermine my argument by attaching much significance to that.



Is that the game you saw the last 15 minutes of by which time Salford had thrown the towel in and were waiting for the hooter?



You don't have to keep them all. Just the ones that show excellent potential even with limited opportunities. If and inevitably when you get it wrong (from a playing point of view) you might end up with (what might appear to you or me) sub-standard types playing 1st grade in their position.

I give Leeds the benefit of the doubt (always) as they get to judge players on much more than the supporters will ever see and have to deal with agents who may be working to a slightly different agenda anyway.



And (if accurate) what was wrong with that decision at the time? He'd made 29 starts for his club that season scoring 19 tries and had been awarded the Lance Todd Trophy for a unique Challenge Cup Final feat. Rivett had good speed, touchline awareness and great feet. An ability to stand players up and ghost past them on the outside.

He also had deficiencies which became all too apparent during the following season and lost his way perhaps in part through a lack of coaching support, which can be an issue in the British game.

Good debate this. I wish G1 and tvoc would give their opinions on more players, because they both know their RL.

I personally do not rate Broughton as highly as tvoc does. I think he could become a good SL winger, but in terms of talent (not pace) I don't think he's good enough to be playing on the wing for a team that is serious about winning titles.
Donald had the big game experience and (although I was never a fan of his on the right wing paticularly) he was steady and knew how to finish. I think when Webb goes, BJB will take the 1 shirt and Hardaker will play on that wing. I see Watkins as the natural successor to Keith. I think Lee Smith is a better right centre than Delaney will ever be, although Delaney does have the makings of a very effective second row, just as McKenna was after his first dodgy season in the centres.