Like I said, it's just an opinion. For me football has a particular stage on which the true greats are defined. Giggs has never played on that stage. Harsh perhaps. I'm sure he doesn't weep too often about my opinion mind you. Great club player, arguably his club's best ever, but no pedigree worth mentioning on the international stage.

But thats due to his nationality and not his ability, He has played in for many years and won the best club comp in the world (CL).

What if Pele was born in Bolivia or Chile?

Then he wouldn't be the acknowledged legend of the game he is. He wouldn't/couldn't have achieved everything he did in the game playing for Bolivia or Chile. That's life.

Do you honestly think (and I am genuinely asking, I accept opinion varies) that if he had achieved everything he did (and it was a lot) with Santos but never made an impact at a World Cup he would be regarded as one of the greatest players of all time? Or just a Santos legend?

Tough one that. He certainly wouldn't have been a World Cup winner, or been involved in any of the exploits that defined him as a world great. Would he even have been as great a player in an inferior team, given that a player only gets to make career defining performances in the big games. I think in these instances we can only deal with what is or has happened, rather than trying to imagine 'what if...'

Like, say, being named the best 13 in the world or being shortlisted for the golden boot?

Re: the 2007 kiwis.

How much do you know about the quality of the Australian teams from past era's where the GB England players that have achieved legendary status by playing against and beating them?

Does the awful state of the 1982 GB team and the quality of our game in general in that year diminish the greatness of any of the 1982 Kangaroos?

The only other 13 in his class is Dallas Johnson. who to me is a better second rower.

rlrl

Well in that case, every Golden boot nominee/named best player in their position in history would also have to be regarded as a'great of the game' too.This is simply not the case. You can't make an exception for Sinfield because, as a Leeds fan,you'd like it to be so. Is Moi Moi a world great, for example? Let alone the nominees from the past who haven't gone on to become RL greats. Apart from anything else, at the time of writing he isn't even this years winner! Surely, using your criteria, the winner has a greater shout at considering theselves a great than a nominee?

Again, if he continues to perform like he has over the last game and a half over a sustained period, then certainly these things would be, as it were, on his cv, as would his exploits at club level. But as I say, on their own they won't get him universally acknowledged as a world great and that's what it would take to make it true, don't you think?

Yeah, stick to little, furry animals. Much more your intellectual equals.

You could say the same about Sinfield if he was born in Aus

How do you manage to have two Russian hamsters on your hand at the same time and not have them trying to kill each other? And kill you, and everyone else. Mental little things they are.

Have you seen the look in their eyes?

Five seconds after that picture was taken he was rolling around on the floor desperately clawing at his neck as they went for the jugular.

They may not be my hands . I may have Googled that.

My nephew had a couple and they were like some sort of flesh eating alien mini-beasts. The sort of thing you get in cheap horror sci-fi films that can strip the meat off an astronaut in 20 seconds. They both had grissely ends. One of them litterally exploded - it's innards must have been under tremendous pressure and one day it "popped" it's guts everywhere. The other one (obviously incapable of living alone) hung itself from the bars.