Senior will end up being one the greatest leeds players my generation will ever see. Despite being in the decline he is still doing it at the top level. Flash in the pans are frequent but to gain the consistency and longevity in a career he has is unheard of. I would like to know what he eats for breakfast, one shredded wheat or twelvety??

Sinfield is a great of the club but doesn't get the kudos from other RL fans to be considered up with Senior in the sport.

For me Danny or Rob haven't reached that next level yet.

Out of the four named by the OP it is Senior that I believe will grace the annals with the greatest prevalence. There is not much that ‘Beef’ hasn’t achieved

3 Dream Team shirts
CC winners Medal
3 Championship rings
44 representative appearances (over 13 years)
178(?) Domestic appearances


A true ‘All Time Great’

I'll accept your five season time frame and drop the Trophies that were not on offer in both eras (JP/FT/YC/ECC/WCC.)

1967/8 to 1971/72
League Leaders - 4
Champions - 2 (+1 losing final)
Challenge Cup - 1 (+2 losing finals)

2004 to 2008
League Leaders - 1
Champions - 3 (+1 losing final)
Challenge Cup - 0



They were all played under a single division system but just as the seasons you wish to compare to they weren't decided by playing every other team equally. It was the same for teams either side of the pennines.



A pity that wasn't a more representative Kiwi side like the one that played in the World Cup but that's by the by.

On your more general International point, were Australia GB's whipping boys (as is the case reversed nowadays) in the lead up to the momentous Ashes encounters down under in 1970?

It's my recollection that Australia had in fact won the previous three Ashes series (two of those on these shores) and winning the Ashes back was a fantastic achievement and one modern day GB/England players (including the subjects of this thread) can only dream about.



I've changed my time span to yours and the result is close enough to be debateable which achieved the most on the basis of results and big game involvement having set aside the additional comps of yesteryear.

As individuals, judged on the International front, there can be little comparison between the Ashes and World Cup winners and a series win V an understrength New Zealand select.

I still think that to be able to say 'best ever' domestically the current team needs to add a CC win - may be less important nowadays but it's still a trophy they haven't won.

I do agree though that with the benefit of hindsight this team will be appreciated more. And from what I recall the great Arthur Clues won diddly squat in his time at Leeds, which according to some measures would mean he can't have been that good.

That's OK. I'll accept your time frame of 7 seasons and see what we do over this and next, Still, even taking a reduced time frame, not much in it and the current lot certainly don't have a "way to go"

So the is the league leaders really that much to crow about. There would be a lot of the dross at the bottom now not in the top division not to mention a lack of games against the really big guns from across the pennines. Also, 2 Championships from 5 league leaders shows that when it came to the crunch they lost more than they won.

Hang on. You can't have it both ways. You want to throw in achievements in the international arena from a different era but not the era I mention because it doesn;t suit. GB beat the NZ national team regardless of what selection issues you want to wrangle over.


Indeed. So would you say that you were wrong to say the current side had a "way to go"?

I never was judging them on the international front. They beat the NZ national team 3 nil in a series. They beat the NZ national team put in front of them. I've no idea what players weren't available to Aus in the 1960's and 1970's or what players had retired or were injured and its' irrelevant. Whichever 13 pull on that jersey at the NZ internationals.

Let me stress, I am not decrying the achievements of the teams from yesteryear. Not in any way shape or form. I am simply saying the current crop rightly stand as their equals if not betters.

I note you're crediting losing finals but seem to have omitted the 2005 CC final.

Also, let me repeat, how many of the team that played in the 1969 Championship Final played in the 1972 Final? I suspect they were very different teams with 4 possibly 5 max and possibly not the same 1, 6, 7 or 9.

The 1960's and 1970's teams were two different eras with a few players holding over.

Finally, did the team from the 1960's or 1970's ever manage to retain a championship?

Atky, Ray Batten and the sub (Hick) were the only players in both Championship winning sides. To be strictly correct you probably have to talk about two 'eras' when you look at the players involved in the good old days - those to 1970 ish (of whom Smith, Atky, Hynes and to a lesser degree Holmes were involed later) and the side of say 72-78.

I wouldn't diss the current side's achievements at all - and the remarkable thing is the continuity, with Senior, McGuire, Burrow, Bailey, Diskin, Sinfield, Lauti'iti and JJB having played in all 3 GF wins.

I reckon that if they were to win a CC there could be no doubting their place as the most successful Leeds team ever. As it stands now I'd have them about neck-and-neck.

In terms of individuals, you can't argue Senior, McGuire and Sinfield would have to be up there as all-time 'greats' - probably more room to debate the others. That's what Message Boards are for.

I missed that one. My bad.

The thread is regarding four Leeds players and their place in history.

I view their careers as ongoing at present but unless or until they reach the pinnacle of involvement in a winning World Cup campaign or a winning Ashes series they will fall short of my idols of the late sixties and early seventies.

As a team game that isn't a fate entirely in their own hands though.

I form my opinions on seeing all the players I have mentioned in their prime and repeat IMO as individuals McGuire, Burrow and Sinfield have some way yet to go to match Shoebottom, Seabourne and Hynes.

In the late 60s and 70s didn;t the seasons down under and in england complement each other, meaning that players could play down under during the 'summer'. or did this only occur in the 80s/90s. Also, when were internationals played. End of the english season, or the end of the NRL season. either way, one set of players could be said to be under prepared.

Two reasons for the change in the balance of the international season would be that the britsih players just don't get the chance to play at the higher level they do down under, and that the internationals are played at a time when both sets of players should be equally prepared.

On the kind of objective 'metrics' view it is clear that the current side and that of the late 60's early 70's compare pretty much like for like.

This may be the rose tinted spectacles of hindsight but for me the Leeds side of that late 60's early 70's period played a brand of entertaining and often awe inspiring open rugby the like of which (arguably) has never been seen before or since.

I think the Leeds side of 2004 came closest in terms that level of sheer foorball genius although there was a patch last year (around Easter) where we were in that zone. But for me they haven't played at that leve as consistently as the great Leeds side of the earlier era.

Having said that I am sure that Burrow, et al will sit comfortably in the Leeds hall of all time greats and quite right too.

Cannot disagree with anything you've put there. (what a shame).

I am at a disadvantage, having not seen the three you mention play.

Senior, McGuire, Sinfield and Burrow have been the heart of the side for the last few years, and they'll go down as legends as the driving force behind our recent period of success. JJB is, for me, another who could join that group.

For me, the most exciting thing is that Burrow & McGuire are still only 26. If they can continue at the standards they've set as long as Long & Cunningham have done, we could be very succesful for a very long time.

I think in 20 years time history may have a different view. It's extremely difficult to judge how a player will be remembered when you can actually accurately remember how they played. It will be even more difficult for players of this generation to be viewed as all time legends because of the video evidence we will have to prevent any memory "embelishment".
I guess my ealriest legends were the likes of Holmes, Dyl and Atkinson. None of whom were able to win a test series against the Australians either.
I'll see how we talk about Sinny etc. in 2029 (if I'm still around - the way I feel today that doesn't seem likely, I really should remember how bad a hangover saki gives me). If we win another 2 or 3 titles with them then it's going to be hard to ignore their place in history alongside the very greatest players. For me Senior is there already, but I never did see Sid Hynes so I can't really compare directly.
The one blemish for Keith is never being MOS. There should be a special MOS like the Oscars lifetime achievement award, where someone finally realises that several very average players got the nod instead of the guy that actually deserved it. 2005 Senior was every bit as good as Lyon, but the hype surrounding the portly pig hunter was totally OTT (I think it was the 37 goals that swung it for him because otherwise the stats aren't supporting his win either). Anyone who can make Karl Pratt look good enough to get a GB shirt is truly a legend.

Atkinson did. He goes in my local and its the standing joke, all the lads have a bet how long it is before he mentions it!

Of course he did. My bad.