If it's always the same team, the latter. The undefeated record would be nice to have in the history books, but can you really call a team great if it hasn't won any meaningful silverware. In your hypothetical example, Leeds have won very littel of meaning having focused their effort in the wrong places, the other side (if you do mean always the same team)has just won an unprecedented 8 league championships.

You might argue that the unbeaten record itself would mark the team out for greatness I suppose, but it wouldn't detract form the achievements of the champion side. To me that unbeaten record for no silverware would be a bit of an embarrassment. A decade of choking.

As said above, change the rules and you might well find that this Leeds side changes what it does. But the rules are there and everyone has to play to them. Playing to some different ones because you don't like the actual ones doesn't make you great. It makes you foolish.

I don't think that's a paradox. Unless you're being a bit loose with some definitions.

It could be seen as self-contradictory only if the difference between the two wasn't clearly written in the operational rules for the competition. They are two distinct things, with distinct definitions and more weight given to one than the other.

That isn't a paradox.

As I've already said elsewhere, if it's so easy to win this 'cup competition', then maybe someone else should win it once in a while.

The Goal of both the Challenge Cup Comp and the Super League Comp is to reach the Final and Win it.

We are reaching Finals and achieving 50% of what we set out to do.

All the 27 Rounds are designed for is to position yourselves into the best league position to achieve winning the Final.

Wigan and Wire had an easier Run in the Playoffs and we still destroyed them.

Stop the Belly Aching and just admit that Leeds Rhinos are the most successful Club in Super League History. And all this by staying within the Salary Cap Rules and raising ourselves above the Hate and Jealousy.

Wigan Fans are they are so arrogant and live in a Fairytale Bubble. They hate it when we pop it.

To point at only the last two seasons as means of deciding whether to call this crop of players a great team seems shortsighted to me. The spine of this team has not only won the GF from 5th 2 years on the bounce, but has also won 3 consecutive GF as well as another one, all having contested 7 of the last 9 Finals. As well as CCFinals along the way.

Indeed. The words "icing" and "cake" spring to mind.

When you've done it the conventional way from the top 2 a few times, it probably gets boring. We need a challenge, so we thought we'd have a go at winning from 5th a few times.

Next year: 8th.

I really hope not. It's nasty watching some of those performances mid season. I'd like to see more consistency next year, but still some peaking toward the end to complete another back-to-back-to-back.

Amongst all that excitement I also forgot the World Club Championships!?!
Yeah we are a bit rubbish really aren't we.

Nice

How annoying and boring is this now? We could win every game in a season, win the GF in scintillating fashion and still not be considered great. Throughout the season we might not have been the best, but the season ends on GF day and all the players accept that. When they talk about finishing top, it isn't because they can claim to be the best that year, but because it gives them a better chance on the playoffs. Read what other players say about Leeds' success and they respect what they've achieved because only they truly know the effort it takes to win from 5th. Throw into the mix that we've played in every round of the cup for the last 3 years, missed 1 playoff game in 5 years and missed 1 WCC in 5 years. That's why this team should be regarded as one of the greatest of all times.

Wigan won it in 2010 and people proclaimed that they were going to dominate. But their 'great' side hasn't done it. Even more reason why this Leeds team should be considered great.

Any team who wins the grand final deserves it, and deserves the respect of everyone else. All games contain that element of luck so that's a none argument.

I couldn't care a less what other fans want to say. We all know the format at the start of the year, and are happy about the format when our teams are chasing a spot. In the eyes of the people who matter. I doubt any other set of fans will be able to experience what we have and in my eyes, and I dare say everyone else with blue and amber in their veins, in the years to come we'll smile when reminiscing over our domination.

Firstly, asnyone who doesn't think the Grand Final is the best thing to happen to our sport is seroiously deluded. Having the first past the post decide the champions would be so regressive and damaging financially it should not be considered.

As has been pointed out, repeatedly to the newcomers, Rugby League, like MOST team sports has decidced it's champions via a playoff format for the vast majority of it's history aside from a brief period between 1972 and 1997.

Who can tell us where many of the great championship winning teams from before 1972 finished during the league season and who cares?

The legendary Huddersfield team of th 1910 and 1920s won five titles in those decades via a playoffs. Without Wiki, where did they finish and does anyone care? The great Swinton team won four titles from 1926 to 1931 via a playoff system.

The MAJORITY of Wigan's titles (11 of 19) were won under a playoff format.

Anyone who thinks the winners of the Grand Final or Championship final are not worthy champions is, frankly, an idiot with little understanding of the history of Rugby League.

By all means debate the playoff formats strengths and weaknesses. That is a valid discussionm. But the subject of the team winning the GF being valid champions should not be discussed by anyone who is a Rugby League fan. Unless, of course they are a parochial, bitter, insular rugby leaghue observer.

As has been pointed out if the Wakefield luddite is against the Playoffs determining the champions will he accept that Wakefield have never been true champions as thier only two titles were earned under a playoff format. Let me educate you on your club's history Kinlleycat. Your team didn't finish top in either of the season's it won back to back championships. In both seasons that Wakefield trinity were crowned Champions the league leaders were LEEDS RLFC.

Thw worst thing the RFL could have done was introduce the dinnerplate as a fop for the moaning luddites. Take it away now and end this banal and ignorant discussion.

Read the thread title and assumed it must be to do with our new "Champions 2012" edition shirt.