I could live with that if it means we spend the remaining SC money on the forwards. 1 prop and 2 back rowers please...

He's let us down loads of times Marty, not sure why you have missed that. He has missed more tackles for a start than your bang average centre does. He misses lots. He makes very little yardage in collission, and is just not going to be anything more. He is an hard worker who puts his body on the line, but with no ability to supplement that. The bit you have missed here on what I said, and what Maximillion has due to an infatuation with the player, is that nobody is arguing about squad players and people who fill in when an injury, we all know everyteam has those. The comment was that they should not be running around Super League as starting super league players. We have plenty of squad fillers.

Runciman was an overseas recruit for Widnes, one of their star signings, why? Keinhorst is leaving Leeds because he thinks he is better than squad player and wants more game time. These are not the squad fillers you are both talking about, they are looking for more, and I maintain they are not up to that. Super League needs to striving to encourage much better players in the league, and use that squad filler role with better prospects.

I wasn't trying to have a dig at Keinhorst, not in anyway, which is why I was grouping him with similar ilk, that for me just do not cut it. Had Hull KR still had Minns to call on, they wouldn't be looking at Keinhorst.

The lack of a decent playmaker cost us so many matches this year but we have signed a runner as the new 6. So even with a better pack why will we make better decisions on the fifth tackle next season?

I see what your getting at, that we haven't really added to the "brains" in the team with the signings we've made. I think that even though Lolohea is primarily a runner, he can't be a worse game manager than Moon was. If we can get on the front foot in the forwards, then Myler (and I'd hope Ward given his background as a stand off rather than as a battering ram) would be able to step up and lead us around the park from 13 as a ball player with better structure around him.

I think Furner will give us much more structure, and that will help to manage games, but of course we will need the players to step up.

You are forgetting Smith here. He has been used entirely wrongly up to now, and it will be up to Furner how he goes going forward. But that lad has one hell of a rugby brain on him. Why it was coached out of him I will never know.

I'm not forgetting him, I just think that for the next year or two, he should be a bench player (getting lots of regular game time) so that he can develop in a managed way rather than thrown into a cauldron should next year not start well.

My son played against him plenty when they were kids, I know his potential.

And by doing that you lose that game management bit and don't develop it. Effectively you are using him like McDermott. This is fine if that is the long term route Furner wants. But if he wants game management, as discussed on this thread and good handling skills, then Smith should be at the forefront of his thoughts here, unless he has other options.

I'm not saying we should use him like McD did, I'm saying give him increasing game time and responsibility.

He's 19/20, there's plenty of time over the next 2 years to turn him into the player we both know he can be. It's too early to give him all that responsibility now, especially considering how the team have been in the last 3 years and the pressure that would come with it. What I'm saying is develop him over the next 2 years, by giving him more and more responsibility over that time, so we can see how he handles it and not dump on him by asking for the world from next February.

I do not want to see him developed as a biff and barge back (or front) rower, he's a lot better than that.

Time will tell with him - he was an elite player as a youngster but there are plenty of elite young players that simply cannot take that into the grown ups. A lot will depend if Furner wants to play an NRL style of structure/power game or something with more finesse.

Is Smith really that good?

I've only watched him in the seniors and have been pretty meh about him. I've no idea of his background or ability at academy so maybe it is that mcd used him wrong in a team that was going backwards.

I honestly don't know, but do people really think he is a key cog for us in the future? Would he best with Stevie ward and the back 3 with a strong runner making us the third of them?

If you go back on the thread, it might not need the question, because the issue of whether he is any good, or indeed whether you have seen that in how he has been used, have not been given the chance to show thus far. The lad as stated is a game manager, a good rugby brain, with excellent handling skills. He has been used as a bish and bash, hence the Meh.

Had he been used to utilise his talents, then we would know further as to whether he is the future. He certainly has it in him, but only if used in that capacity.

You certainly do.