You are as much of a lying weasel as the vast majority of our politicians.

Have a look at what you have deliberately put above compared to what you stated in your earlier post[iNegotiations start next week, at which point Turkey will be told it still needs to meet another 34 of the 35 criteria for EU membership.
France will not agree to them joining unless Turkey acknowledges the 1915 Armenian genocide. Not a cat in hell's chance of Turkey doing that.
Those are facts. Dismiss them all you like, but they are facts. To pretend they aren't is just you lying to yourself.[/i

Notice (this is for the benefit of others as you obviously know what you have done!) that you have changed from:
"France will not agree to them joining unless Turkey acknowledges the 1915 Armenian genocide. Those are facts"

to:
"France has stated that it will use its veto unless Turkey acknowledges the Armenian genocide" as a fact.

So, you quite obviously realised that your first post was erroneous, misleading & indeed ridiculous. But instead of just admitting your mistake, you re-quote (still with your high-horse attitude) in the hope that no one will spot your deception.

Well done.

Incidentally, how often do you think what any politician states are his/her intentions & what the actual outcome becomes are one & the same thing?

If you think that France is lying about not allowing Turkey into the EU without them acknowledging the Armenian genocide your crazy.

If you think even if they were lying that it is a serious possibility that Cyprus, a country Turkey doesnt even recognise, wouldnt block it, then you are completely lost.

Its a national embarrassment how Turkey has been used in this debate.

Not my point. My point was someone deliberately changing their earlier words in the hope that their mistake would not be picked up.

Rather like almost all of the Remain "facts" which turn out to be opinion. Indeed, I would think that a fact has to be a thing of history. Can there be any fact about the future?

Unless you think France are lying there is no difference between those two statements.

I'm sorry, but you are quite wrong . The statement was made & then claimed as fact.

Now, it may well be a fact that France have said that they will veto Turkey

It is not, however, a fact that France will veto Turkey - how can it be?

It is as much a fact as any future tense statement can be. On the basis of all information available currently, it is a fact France will veto Turkey's ascent

But to move forward about your meaningless sophistry about the meaning of the word 'fact'

It is fact that Cyprus will block Turkey's ascent to the EU.

You might have seen the fact that I am a "Remainer" and I still believe Turkey is a red herring ..Cyprus is still a half occupied country let's not forget.

However I get what you're saying.

Look, I really do appreciate what you are saying, but I believe this is most of what's been wrong about this whole "campaign" ie people claiming fact, when all it is is opinion.

At the risk of irritating you further, & with respect, it is NOT FACT that Cyprus will block Turkey's ascent (or descent?) to the EU. Because it hasn't happened. What if right now (or in the future) there are ongoing detente talks between Cyprus & Turkey whereby Turkey recognises Cyprus's existence & Cyprus does not veto Turkeys admission into the EU. The EU "big boys" could well pressure little Cyprus into entering these talks, who knows?
Is that an impossible scenario?

Why can't people just say "In my opinion there is very little chance that...", "because all the indications suggest to me that...", "the EU have stated that...", "XYZ expert believes that...", "historical evidence would support..."? I guess you feel that it will strengthen your argument to designate it as fact. Well, I suppose you will convince some.

Well it has happened, Cyprus have been blocking Turkeys route to the EU. To gain ascent Turkey need to negotiate 33 of 35 chapters. In 2009 Cyprus blocked the negotiation of 6 chapters of negotiation and continue to do so. As such no chapters of negotiation have been opened.

Even by your sophist definition of 'fact' Cyprus will block Turkeys route to the EU because they have and continue to do so.

You may be able to argue that at some stage in the future there is a possibility that may change, but the fact remains Cyprus have, and do, and as such will, block Turkey's ascent to the EU

Sounding closer than I thought.....early predictions at 52% - 48% to remain.

I'll take any kind of remain majority even if it's by 1 vote.

Never underestimate how easy it is to manipulate people when the media is largely controlled. People will, by and large, do just what they're led to do.

Oh dear. Not looking good...

Looking like it's going to be a long night.

Still think offering the referendum was a good idea Dave?

If you think this is bad, wait until the markets open in a few hours. If they open. (Unless London and Scotland get you out of the hole and tilt the balance.)

I'll revisit this thread in a few months when we're moving from recession to depression and give Juan a lesson about "speculation" and "facts".

For now in my professional life I, along with a lot of other people, will be busy trying to mitigate the worst of the effects, but a lot of it will be p!ssing in the wind. At least I can get an Irish passport for myself and my family and have freedom to choose what to do next within the EU. Most won't be so lucky.

Yet it's almost a 50/50 vote at the moment so not really by and large at all.