I agree with G1 and tony.

When you look at the tries, the ''shenton theory'' doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. Whether it caused disruption or not, for me, you're 8 points ahead in a GRAND FINAL with 15 to go, you'ev had 80% posession. You should be closing that off. You should be winning from that position. Saints had players in position to make the tackles and they should have been tackling their bloody hearts out to stop the man.

When the reality hit home that saints, might actually win, they froze. Leeds stepped up made them pay and showed what champions they are.

Leeds completly and utterly own saints in grand finals at the moment.

I'm sure that those sentiments we're Wilkins alone and were not some contrived media spin and from the England camp too?

Fair Play to Wilkin. Its not making a mistake thats the problem its what you do about it that matters.

I think I explained earlier but I'll try again even though I'm a little surprised I'm having to. St Helens (like Leeds) defend with a half-back between centre and wing. On the Saints right edge to begin the game it was (from inside to wing) Soliola, Shenton, Lomax, Makinson.

For this try (after reorganising for Wellens and Shenton leaving the field) it's Dixon, Soliola, Meli, Lomax. In this situation Soliola is defending where Shenton would have been.

Webb runs at Soliola who is drifting out as Leeds have a potential three on two if he doesn't. Soliola has a decision to make whether to stop drifting and commit to Webb (risking the overlap) or stay on his man and trust Dixon's slide defence to collect Webb. Webb throws a little dummy and Soliola's beaten on his inside shoulder as Dixon sliding from the inside is unable to make an effective tackle.

Does Webb score if that's Shenton making the decision instead of Soliola, do Soliola and Shenton (the earlier pairing) communicate and combine better to prevent the gap opening are the unknowns. What is known is that Webb isolates Soliola and scores and Soliola is where Shenton would have been in the defensive line.




The problem caused by Wellens and Shenton's absences is probably most evident on this score. Would the defensive structure such as it was have been in such disarray if Wellens had been out there barking his instructions from the back? Soliola (still deputising in Shenton's position- 3rd man in) makes tackle two (on Jones-Buchanan) and three (on Peacock) and is caught at marker. To make matters worse as Burrow waits at dummy half Meli is dropping back to protect the early kick, you see Burrow look to his right and then a look to the left and that is where he goes. He's seen a disorganised shambles, beaten Moore, Lomax is faced with a three on one, then Meli a two on one and finally Hall is one on one with Makinson. Great, great score but what about the defence.



Great piece of play from Leeds' departing hooker close to the line. Again Soliola is tied up at marker and Buderus targets and beats him from the ruck, draws Lomax creating a potential two on one for Ablett and Hall V Meli. This time the defence is up to prevent the pass but cannot stop Ablett powering over the top of Lomax. I agree that on this try with or without Shenton I fancy Buderus to make the same play and Leeds to score by getting Ablett running over Lomax.



I really don't think anyone has remotely suggested otherwise.

Sorry but I still don't buy it TVOC, you make some very good points but as I said before both Soliola and Dixon had Webb covered, both are full time SL players and Webb managed to squeeze between both to score, nothing at all suggests to me that Shenton would have made any difference.

Saints were all over the place when Burrow made the break but why was the winger so deep?, was he incapable of staying in the defensive line without Wellens on the field to keep reminding him.

Leeds were well on the front foot before Shenton was injured and I don't think for one second that the result would have been any different had he stayed on, he may have saved one of the trys you never know but Saints were never in a position to use the threat of shenton during the last 20mins..

"The threat of Shenton"

TVOC has worked his jedi mind trick on you Tony.

Oooh hark at her.

You're "having to" because a number of posters have disagreed with you. Some have gone to the trouble of explaining why.

Or shall we all just accept your opinion as gospel?

Sounds like wilkin's filled his pants.

Classic Bailey

In fairness to menstrual Jon it's not the same one, he has a new and unique one after each GF loss.

Yes the press must make a beeline for rentasob

If it was just an opinion without an explanation, I wouldn't expect a living sole just to accept it. Even with an explanation I still don't. I could care less who accepts any of my posts, that's a matter for them.

I was only surprised that Tony didn't appear to appreciate the St Helens defensive formation. Tony's take misrepresented where Shenton (the centre) was defending in the St Helens line, and who defended in his place after the injury.

If you wish to add to the factual part of the discussion then I'm sure you will. I'm always interested to know where I'm going wrong, in your opinion.

You can start by looking at the glass as half full. master that and we'll move on to the next step.