Not just that but these past few games i cant even recall him even having a chance in the opposing 25.The only time you see him these days is carting back kick returns.

It seems like such a waste when we have such weapons in Hall,Watkins and Moon that we cant get some paterns of play sorted out that give them the opportunity to display their talents.Instead we spend the most part trying to crash ball our way over the line or running up blind alleys with the likes of Burrow who is becoming way too obvious and Mcguire who, although still a decent half, is sadly not the player he once was without his blistering pace.

We have the three quarters,we need to start making better us of them.

After a decent run in form from the side, which included some outstanding defence, we have now hit a flat spot which together with injuries could take a few games to put right. What is obvious and key is the drop in form of our half backs Sinfield and McGuire who are creating very little. Burrow while not at his best was at least buzzing about and scored a good "hookers" try and assisted in Bailey's try.

Vickery had a solid game and was our best winger so should not be taking the flak. Similarly to blame a lack of rotation of the forwards for the defeat is a nonsense. Our best two forwards were Delaney and JJB (despite his running out of the line) Other than Kylie the rest of the pack should have been fresh but were dissappointing including Bailey who took his try well and had one aggressive run just after but other than that was pretty ineffective.

Saints have some speed and talent in their backs and their "flogged" old men Wellans and Wilkins were at the centre of their come back.

In the end it was Hardaker' blunders that made the difference in the scores. We now have to regroup, cut out the penalties and get our defence working again. The out of form players will play themselves back into form and the benchmen now have to stand up and be counted.

There was a giant Jamie Peacock size hole in our defence. Once that was discovered we were knackered. Up to that point I thought everyone did their job pretty well - some of our tackling was ferocious.

Vickery was not responsible for the defeat and had his best game in a Leeds shirt, in that he looked almost Conference standard, but in a game where neither winger got any ball while the "playmakers" were doing god-knows-what inside them and, understandably, St Helens elected to kick long towards the slow guy rather than the dangerous guy, giving Hall even less chance to shine, saying Vickery was our "best winger" redefines disingenuous. I don't recall any barely-chased breaks down Hall's side or any offloads from Vickery either.

I personally thought that Delaney looked injured and probably had one of his worse games I have seen this year from him. The fact that he was one of the better forwards highlights how poor the forwards were. I agree regarding JJB had a good game, and actually I thought bailey had one of his better games for us this season.

Hardaker had a bit of a mare. Vickery while not costing us the game I certainly don't see him as solid. He has no pace and last night on some of the kick returns looks to be running in treacle. If Watkins had been on the wing (or someone with pace the makinson try might not have been scored. For me every time he loses the collision being held up dragged back and always results in a slow PB. And I have yet to see him make a break or tackle bust all season. Wasn't his fault by any stretch of the imagination that we lost, and it's not scapegoating to say he is a poor player who is extremely lucky to even be at a club like Leeds

Which would happen more often if the rotationists had their way!

Alternatively you could play a hooker.

Once Mags had allowed the off load even Watkins couldn't have caught him, so to suggest Vickery was at fault is off the mark. He brought back kick returns as well or better than Hall on the night IMO. But our problems were not on the wing but at half back and in some poor discipline.

Burrow scored a good hookers try and made a good hookers pass for another.

So why be critical of Vickery last night when Hall was no better and there others much worse?

I thought you were talking about defensive holes in the middle of the park? Saying we could play a hooker seemed relevant to that.

I wouldn't have been critical of him had you not piped up saying he was our "best winger" last night. Hall, though he had no running opportunities, wasn't "no better": he got quick play-the-balls and offloads that Vickery couldn't even imagine. As I said, it was probably Vickery's best performance in a Leeds shirt and he wasn't responsible for the defeat. However he is in no way a Super League standard player, let alone a Leeds one.

I did not talk of defensive holes in the middle of the park.

I didn't say it was his fault, he has no pace, Watkins nearly made the tackle from a worse position, if he had been on the wing he may have saved a try he may not but IMO he would have got their.

No one in their right mind would blame him for last nights defeat but equally it's plain to see he is not good enough to play at this level.

Fetlar: There was a giant Jamie Peacock size hole in our defence. Once that was discovered we were knackered. Up to that point I thought everyone did their job pretty well - some of our tackling was ferocious.

Juan Cornetto: Which would happen more often if the rotationists had their way!

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What was this conversation about then?