I agree and disagree with that. I agree you don't need fast halves. However I think that speed needs to come from somewhere.

People do seem to have a set idea in their heads of what each position must provide and Speed at half is one they see and I agree with you that isn't necessary.
I do however think that you need speed in the middle of the park, for some it comes from their halves, for some their fullback.

Cronk has played most of his career in front of Billy Slater who is no slouch

I don't think our problem is that we don't have enough speed in the halves it's that we don't have any speed at all in the middle of the park. The number of times i saw Watkins look back on his inside and see nobody last season was silly. Similarly our offloads were rarely on to a player steaming through and far more often to players either stood still or to forwards.

What the team is missing is what everyone dismissed as easy 10 years ago with McGuire. That player who can ghost through a gap, who is away before you know it and is on the shoulder of every ball carrier. I've said before that the thing stopping Hardaker being a world class player isn't his passing, it's his support play.

Indeed. I recall watching Iestyn at the Bulls do the same stuff he used to do for us to open gaps but being unable to get through them. Similarly, McGuire has reached that stage.

It's not essential to have lightening fast halves but when we play McGuire and Sinfield there we're at the other end of the spectrum. One is fine but both pose little threat as runners which makes them easier to defend.

The problem alone isn't that the halves don't have speed, I still think you can be successful with them. Problem comes when you have,
Slow Halfbacks + Workhorse Forwards
Apart from Ablett none of our main forwards are or have ever been really threatening near the line. Look at the tries Sinfield created for Burgess and Westwood in the WC just a little over 12 months ago as well as the one for Watkins in the Semi vs NZ. All done with his lack of pace but good support runs. Someone mentioned earlier that halves could do with speed to create doubt in the defenders minds about what they might do......well if there's a lack of good runs from forwards looking like serious threats/options then regardless of speed you don't have doubt in defenders minds. The lack of tries we get from our forwards, barring Ablett, is very poor.

Agree with that. It's partly why I think we need at least one of Ward or Walters in the team.

I have take the trouble to back up my opinions with stats which are based on facts whereas the best neruda has come up with is a blog to support his opinion!

You have come up with an opinion based on stats, just like the person writing the blog has come up with an opinion. One has some credibility.

I have been supporting Leeds since the late 50's and I have seen a fair few players from several eras including both the greats and the journeymen of our wonderful game. In addition I have a reasonable level of coaching and managing experience where stats were used. This does not mean I can never to be wrong of course as my opinions are formed like most others: ie: watching players in matches and sometimes in training and we can all get it wrong on occasions.

It seems to annoy you, and one or two others, that I am sometimes able to back up my opinions with stats and analysis when you cannot. So you cry "foul" and seek to insult and discredit on a personal level. Unable to counter my arguments you therefore conclude that I am unable to form opinions without stats. This judgement like much of your opinion comes without supporting evidence but with a helping of arrogance.

My postings with regard to Hardaker since he came into the side has been both supportive and critical as IMO he is some work to do before he can be classed as a 'great' or a 'class' act. I have made these comments before offering supporting stats

As I have previously posted he is a good player with a great physical game including tackle busts, strength in the tackle, fielding kicks and returns and he has a good work rate with a high number of carries and makes good metres. So he can fairly be regarded among the best defensive fullbacks in SL.

However IMO he is below par in his attacking skills with generally poor passing and kicking ability. He is often greedy, ignoring overlaps (a rugby cardinal sin) and his link play does not create enough. He also has a suspect temperament. So on attack he has some way to go before he can be regarded as the one of the best attacking fullbacks in SL. As attack is one of the key roles, if not the key role of the fullback, these are serious deficiencies. This does not mean he will not improve and I have not suggested we swop him or sell him.

So please try and accept Gotcha that my opinions are fairly formed even if you disagree with them. That would at least give you some credibility.

While I agree with your comment printer about how more than just non workhorse forwards would help bring more out of Sinfield as it was for England the problem is that these are not in a huge abundance of them. The England team obviously have what is considered the creme de la creme of that year and Sinfield (Widdop as well) utilised them very well. In superleague I believe that not many teams have more than one of them e.g. Wigan Farrel, Sts Soliola, Hull Ellis but apart from maybe Warrington who have Hill and Harrison(unlucky injury record). Sinfield unfortunately will have to make the most of what Leeds have because getting a forward like that is difficult. I am going to be positive and hope Cuthbertson in the mix and putting Sutcliffe at LF will help the cause with threatening the opposition line.

There you go again, those are not all facts, simply your opinion defined by you as facts.
You may be right, you may be wrong, but at the end of the day those are merely your opinions.

Stats - produced by independent sources - suggest JC's observations of Hardaker's skill sets are credible. You may not want to accept that that is your choice. You cannot ignore the stats - the professionals don't which should suggest they carry some weight and importance. My views on Hardaker have been consistent throughout this thread - they are supported by the stats. I cannot see where the likes of Gotcha think he could ever make a half back in an elite side on what we have seen on the field.

You can't ignore th stats.....but the conclusion can be varied.
Is Hardaker not scoring and creating enough tries because he isn't good enough offensively and creatively?
Or is he not scoring enough because he's playing in a team that as a whole has been disappointing offensively?

Swap him with Bowen, do you reckon Hardaker's tries & assists remain the same if he'd have played for Wigan in 2014. Similarly do you think Bowen would get as many playing FB for us in 2014?

JC observation is not credible at all. Until there is stats that breakdown into things like, how many tackles were try savers, how many passes resulted in a break for a team mate ending in a try, or how many breaks resulted in trys for the team. These are important and not something general stats produce.

No where on this thread has Gotcha stated he could make an half back in an elite side. I have stated many times we can not write it off until it is tried, and I believe they will try it. Confirming that statement by saying we would not have the best fullback in the country try had we not put him there. Only you and that nimpty JC have taken it off topic by trying and failing to say Hardaker is not the best fullback.

There is s difference.