Some very good & spot on points made Tad.

(Ignoring your pathetic 2nd sentence which i've not even bothered quoting)

So basically, he's a rubbish coach but he out coached Tony Smith and Shaun Wane multiple times in big games, when it mattered? Good one Sal!

When you said "to name but 4" did you mean there's lots more big games? Feel free to add them and make yourself look even sillier.

Here's a few "lesser" games that you forgot to mention too....

The 16 wins in 2015 that left us top of the table after 23 rounds.
The 4 wins that earned us the LLS.
The semi final win over Saints to take us to the GF.

The wins over Hull, Huddersfield and Saints that took us to Wembley where we piled up a record score in 2015.

The wins over Saints, Wakefield, Leigh and Wire on the way to beating Cas at Wembley in 2014.
The many great wins in the league in 2014 that left us looking like possible champions before the post cup slump.

Do those games not count?

I agree with most of that (but not on having Wane here now, ugh!).
This season will tell on your last point.

Wane is flavour of the month right now because wigan are SL champs and just won the WCC but there were times mid 2016 most Wigan fans thought he had run his course and were wanting his head . I admire the way he gives youth its head but he is not a coach i personally would ever want to see in charge of us.

Hopefully Ward and/or JJB are fully recovered in time.

The bile on this forum is unbelievable sometimes.

In the last few pages of this thread, we've been told that two of the most successful coaches in the history of this club owe their success largely to their predecessors Tony Smith and Daryl Powell (who won NOTHING in his time at Leeds). McClennan did a lot more than just keep things going - he was responsible for a pretty visible culture change, which was pretty obvious in his first year in charge. Likewise, Brian McDermott oversaw a shift away from a decline that set in in the third year of McClennan's tenure to see the team win GFs, CCs and the Treble when many people, including (surprise surprise) the very same culprits on this forum had written Leeds off.

We've also been told that Brian McDermott only improved Keinhorst during his time at the club. Jesus, some people have very selective memories. Ashton Golding has improved from last year pretty dramatically in my reckoning. A lot of people were writing off Stevie Ward in his first full season. Were Hardaker and Watkins already superstars under McClennan? I think not. There are probably many more examples - Delaney's move to the forwards before he became injury prone etc.

I'd argue that the responsibility to improve as individuals lies with the players themselves, whereas the coach's role is to pick the team and get them to perform as a collective unit - which Brian Mac has shown plenty of evidence of. Like all his predecessors, including Smith, McClennan and the godlike Powell (who STILL has won nothing for all his deserved plaudits at Cas), he has overseen slumps in form - but this should never detract from his achievements. I know none of the other coaches has as bad a season as 2016 at Leeds - but none had to do without Sinfield for a full season either.

Selective memories?
You do know what natural talent & potential are right?
What's happened to Watkins?
Stevie Ward was potentially twice the player we see under this regime he has/had the vision & passing game to become an excellent pivot at13 not just a battering ram & run it in SR.
Every player you've listed oozed it & more plus Delaney always was a BR who played centre even by his own admission.
What you clearly dont know or see is how much promise & talent alot of these youngsters have already which alot of others see year on year within our Acadamy set up.
Also wrt Sinfield he knew he'd be without him & JP for a hell of a long time yet here we are still struggling.
So i'll stick with my original opinion thanks.

Not that there's much point, but my view is that McDermott was a great coach for us where it counts - in terms of trophy wins. I don't see much indicating he's good at player development or coaching a struggling side, and personally I think he should have left with a pat on the back after last year.

As it is this year looks like a mid-table side on paper and on the field so far. I have some sympathy in that I don't think the squad is anywhere near as good as it should be if we realistically want to win trophies again, but I for one just don't see McDermott being the guy to get us back on top.

Agree BR.

Haven't taken the Car for a while best places to park tonight?

Thank you

I find it quite odd and a tad amusing that not so long ago many on here were bemoaning the merits of having Sinfield in the side and canvassing for a young bloke called Sutcliffe to be given his chance as Sinfield was too slow and was a liability.
Equally those who were and still are saying how much JP trained the team and was a natural leader seem to forget how he led HKR to relegation and even offered to stand down as a leader after last season.
Now don`t get me wrong both Sinfield and JP were imense for Leeds but all of a sudden we are a bad team and the only reason we were a good team was down to those 2.
The squad and possibly the coach are no longer good enough and probably past their sell by date.
This applies to our "pivots" who simply don`t have it in them anymore.
Our forwards are bang average with a couple or so exceptions.
Our backs no longer scare the pants off the opposition maybe because they don`t get enough ball from the halves or that they have gone backwards in their development.
Our promising youngsters are constantly over looked and farmed out elsewhere and I know for sure a couple of those promising youngsters are getting somewhat miffed at their lack of development and poor treatment from our coach and CEO.
We need a complete overhaul from top to bottom and we need to identify class players to fill the key positions in this team.
Youngsters no longer want to come to Leeds as they see the development of of other youngsters inferior to other clubs.
Decent players no longer want to come to Leeds as "we win trophies" no longer applies.
The coach I feel needs replacing but then again I am not sure many coaches could get any more out of this team.
Most supporters can see where we need to strengthen and I am sure the coach and CEO can see it too.
Why they don`t do anything is anyones guess.
Maybe they no longer have the appetite or maybe there`s no money in the bank.
But if we don`t do anything this year to strengthen for 2018 we will be in the bottom 4 for sure imo of course.

Wow. How do you get out of bed on a morning with that kind of mindset Sal?

I'll be hoping for a win.

Good points chappylad. I think you summed it up for me with the line 'the squad and the coach are no longer good enough and probably past their sell by date'

I don't agree that another coach couldn't get more out of this squad though.not that i think its a stellar squad or i think it can win trophies right now, but with a new voice and fresh ideas we still have players within the group that are capable of playing some top rugby and a few may be given a fresh lease of life.

Completely agree BF i genuinely think that this current crop albeit far from the best squad can & should be better than what they've produced & include last year.