| FORUMS > Leeds Rhinos > SL Q RD1 | Featherstone Rovers A |
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| Quote: Clearwing "Stevie Ward would be commanding a place in the second row now, were he not injured. So I'm not sure your first point stands scrutiny. Granted, he is a far better player than Hughes though.
What skills would you like to see improved in our second rowers?'"
I have already mentioned that Ward has been an exception with Mac
Well just skills in general, I think Stevie Ward for example already was as skilful in the 19s as he is now, he has just bulked up so it is easier for him to break tackles, same with Watkins.
Ward specifically (if he stays at second row) could improve his line running to put himself through more gaps with late changes of direction at the line, if he does that then he will be Englands best back rower as it is the area he lags behind Whitehead and Farrell
More obvious areas in younger players are Golding and Handleys ability under the high ball, which was clearly a problem 2 years ago, but for some reason hasn't been properly addressed
Sutcliffe similarly could run and pass and grubber pretty well when he came through, but his last tackle options haven't improved since 2013 and if anything his ability to sum up an edge defence has got worse since last year
Which player has come through and actually improved in anyway except by just getting bigger? |
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Singleton is much improved from the biff and barge raw prop he was on debut.
Watkins as well, in my opinion if not yours, he now runs some nice lines, and has different ways of putting his winger away than the one handed flick he relied on early on.
On the completely different end of the scale I think Burrow has become a bit more nuanced in the 9 role, obviously can't fulfil the defensive side, but has some nice craft around dummy half, particularly close to the line.
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Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.:icons077e_files/5454-3678dentheman-msnicons.jpg |
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| Quote: ThePrinter "So Jack Hughes, started as a 2nd row, then given the number 4 shirt at Wigan and converted to centre, goes on loan to Hudds and is played at 2nd row, voted their forward of the year and then is allowed to sign for a main rival and is going well again.....meanwhile Wigan sign Isa from Widnes and end up having to play Sutton, normally a prop, at 2nd row also.
If McDermott did that he'd be getting slagged off for a long time, but it's Wigan so it shows how great they do things.
Minns doesn't stay at Leeds in a position we have Watkins, Moon and Keinhorst and because he has an OK season at HKR who finished 11th and it's a massive oversight by McDermott to lose him.
Hughes is loaned out to Hudds and voted their forward of the year in a season they finish 3rd and now going strong for another title contender and they bring in Willie Isa and it's a great sign of how Wane and Wigan operate.'"
I take your points many of which I agree with - one of the issues at Wigan is the sheer number of youngsters they produce and achieving the correct balance in the team. To do that they maybe have to make sacrifices in some areas and perhaps to accommodate Williams, Gildart, Sutton etc in the same side Hughes needed to be swapped out for Isa?
The other thing about Wigan they probably have another couple of Hughes' in the wings a luxury that Leeds simply don't have. |
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"The Golden Generation finally has its Golden Fleece! They have Wembley Cup Final winners medals to add to their collection."
23/08/2014: |
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| Quote: Sal Paradise "I take your points many of which I agree with - one of the issues at Wigan is the sheer number of youngsters they produce and achieving the correct balance in the team. To do that they maybe have to make sacrifices in some areas and perhaps to accommodate Williams, Gildart, Sutton etc in the same side Hughes needed to be swapped out for Isa?
The other thing about Wigan they probably have another couple of Hughes' in the wings a luxury that Leeds simply don't have.'"
Why have they been playing a prop in Ryan Sutton there lately then? Had to sacrifice Hughes to keep some other youngsters who'll still be low earners in their squad and replace him with someone who'll be on just as much if not more? Please more like they had to sacrifice to bring back the likes of Joel Tomkins and Lee Mossop who are as guaranteed to walk into the team when fit just as much as Ablett is regardless of form of youngsters in their absence.
And Gildart, he isn't good enough long term to be at a top 4 club but his dad played at Wigan with Wane and you only have to read the Wigan forum to see what "jobs for the boys" culture is in place there.
Complaints when we sign overseas forwards but what nationalities are the likes of Isa, Tautai and Nu'uausala? Other forwards when fit, Bateman, Clubb, Flower, Joel Tomkins, Farrell, O'Loughlin.....either signed or came through the academy well before Wane's time. If fit the only Wane era academy forward who'd get in is Crosby.
As for this they try, more youngsters.....yes they do but they've had to replace more players than us usually. If the Tomkins brothers, Mossop, Burgess, Leuluai never left then they wouldn't be as many opportunities for them. At Leeds we have pretty small turnovers in terms of players leaving, last year our most significant for a while and for the Sinfield one we went for the academy option in Sutcliffe with Lilley given a 25 man squad shirt......and then most on here have been moaning like hell that we didn't go sign some Aussie.....you honestly can't win. |
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:fonds noir/Buzz Lightyear.gif |
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I can understand the sentiment about BM not trying youngsters, but there isn't a single junior player who's left on his watch that there could be any serious regret about leaving. If anything that supports the argument that our youth development system is simply not producing enough quality.
If there were a bunch of ex Academy players starring elsewhere you could make the point, but there just aren't. Luke Gale is the only example I can think of, but given he came through at a time when we had Sinfield-Burrow-McGuire its hard to blame the club (or Gale) for him leaving.
Wigan are often cited as producing a lot of good players, but its interesting to see how many of them seem keen to jump ship at the first sniff of an RU/NRL contract. We haven't lost a club-produced player in that way since Lee Smith in 2009. In addition just like every other club Wigan seem happy to sign dodgy overseas players if there's a gap in the team.
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"The Golden Generation finally has its Golden Fleece! They have Wembley Cup Final winners medals to add to their collection."
23/08/2014: |
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Quote: BrisbaneRhino "Wigan are often cited as producing a lot of good players, but its interesting to see how many of them seem keen to jump ship at the first sniff of an RU/NRL contract. We haven't lost a club-produced player in that way since Lee Smith in 2009.'"
And that isn't just luck, a lot work clearly goes on to identify the type of player who seems himself at Leeds long term.
www.therhinos.co.uk/tv/mcdermott ... 6vDZJB4WrU
Skip to the 6:00 minute mark and McDermott speaks about how they do things with regards signing young players and how it differs from most clubs in that we ask the players to make a pledge to the club first and and have some faith in the club and show the club some loyalty first, not the other way round. How we also missed out on some youngsters because other clubs threw more money at them and said they'll give you everything right away.
Also this from an interview a few years ago shows an insight into how he views things and it's obvious it's about a lot more than just what skills a player has on a rugby pitch, very much the person they're interested in not just the player.
"McDermott became head coach at Leeds in 2011 and he has since proved his ability to inspire even the finest players. Kevin Sinfield describes him as the best coach he's played for – and much of that success rests on McDermott's ability to get inside the heads of his diverse players. "In rugby league we're very technical and you spend so much time behind a laptop trying to work it all out. But that's not much use unless I know who my players truly are. I want to know where they're from, how they were brought up, whether they're married and have kids. I want to know how they treat their wife and kids. I want to know their views on religion and politics and adversity."
Whereas at Wigan I imagine Jack Hughes didn't last because he was probably reluctant to perform cannonball tackles and other sh*thouse tactics to Wane's desired standard. |
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Quote: BrisbaneRhino "Wigan are often cited as producing a lot of good players, but its interesting to see how many of them seem keen to jump ship at the first sniff of an RU/NRL contract. We haven't lost a club-produced player in that way since Lee Smith in 2009.'"
And that isn't just luck, a lot work clearly goes on to identify the type of player who seems himself at Leeds long term.
www.therhinos.co.uk/tv/mcdermott ... 6vDZJB4WrU
Skip to the 6:00 minute mark and McDermott speaks about how they do things with regards signing young players and how it differs from most clubs in that we ask the players to make a pledge to the club first and and have some faith in the club and show the club some loyalty first, not the other way round. How we also missed out on some youngsters because other clubs threw more money at them and said they'll give you everything right away.
Also this from an interview a few years ago shows an insight into how he views things and it's obvious it's about a lot more than just what skills a player has on a rugby pitch, very much the person they're interested in not just the player.
"McDermott became head coach at Leeds in 2011 and he has since proved his ability to inspire even the finest players. Kevin Sinfield describes him as the best coach he's played for – and much of that success rests on McDermott's ability to get inside the heads of his diverse players. "In rugby league we're very technical and you spend so much time behind a laptop trying to work it all out. But that's not much use unless I know who my players truly are. I want to know where they're from, how they were brought up, whether they're married and have kids. I want to know how they treat their wife and kids. I want to know their views on religion and politics and adversity."
Whereas at Wigan I imagine Jack Hughes didn't last because he was probably reluctant to perform cannonball tackles and other sh*thouse tactics to Wane's desired standard. | |
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| I've not read all this thread so apologies if i've missed something but...
If Wigan's academy and their coach are both so good then how come they never win anything?
If Leeds' academy is so poor and our coach is so bad (ignoring this season's injury ridden nightmare) how come we keep winning everything?
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I think when we look back we'll see that McDermott was the right man at the right time to get the results out of the tail end of the Sinfield era team. That is a big achievement in itself - many coaches would have not been able to manage a group of very experienced and successful players in the way he has.
Where I have massive doubts is over whether BM can build a team himself. This year the wheels have fallen off big time, and the coach has to shoulder responsibility for that, just as he deserves plaudits when things go well. IMO he should be replaced at the end of this year, but like others I believe he'll stay. I'm just not sure I see any evidence from either BM or the club more broadly that there is much in the way of planning going on, or that he is the sort of coach able to mould a new winning team.
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Your job is to say to yourself on a job interview does the hiring manager likes me or not. If you aren't a particular manager's cup of tea, you haven't failed -- you've dodged a bullet.:icons077e_files/5454-3678dentheman-msnicons.jpg |
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| Quote: ThePrinter "Why have they been playing a prop in Ryan Sutton there lately then? Had to sacrifice Hughes to keep some other youngsters who'll still be low earners in their squad and replace him with someone who'll be on just as much if not more? Please more like they had to sacrifice to bring back the likes of Joel Tomkins and Lee Mossop who are as guaranteed to walk into the team when fit just as much as Ablett is regardless of form of youngsters in their absence.
And Gildart, he isn't good enough long term to be at a top 4 club but his dad played at Wigan with Wane and you only have to read the Wigan forum to see what "jobs for the boys" culture is in place there.
Complaints when we sign overseas forwards but what nationalities are the likes of Isa, Tautai and Nu'uausala? Other forwards when fit, Bateman, Clubb, Flower, Joel Tomkins, Farrell, O'Loughlin.....either signed or came through the academy well before Wane's time. If fit the only Wane era academy forward who'd get in is Crosby.
As for this they try, more youngsters.....yes they do but they've had to replace more players than us usually. If the Tomkins brothers, Mossop, Burgess, Leuluai never left then they wouldn't be as many opportunities for them. At Leeds we have pretty small turnovers in terms of players leaving, last year our most significant for a while and for the Sinfield one we went for the academy option in Sutcliffe with Lilley given a 25 man squad shirt......and then most on here have been moaning like hell that we didn't go sign some Aussie.....you honestly can't win.'"
Leeds could field a whole pack of overseas players so I don't think Wigan have anything like that number in their squad. You do know Wane ran the academy before he became head coach and as such I would image a large number of those now in the squad would have come through under his watch.
Whether some guy on a website say certain players are not good enough is irrelevant - players like Gildart are still getting selected and Wane has to achieve a balance of youth and experience on the field. Last week Wigan had 10 players out of the 17 that had come through the academy structure. That would have been higher if Tomkins and Farrell had played.
This season Wigan have beaten Leeds at both U19 and U16 level - not sure what that says but it doesn't show the Wigan academy system in bad light surely? |
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Academy level results are cyclical. They very much depend on where particular teams are in their development - for example this year Leeds have played a number of 16/17 year olds in the U19s, where some sides may have more 18/19 year olds. Next year Leeds are likely to have second year players as the core of the side (Smith, Oledzki, Whiteley, Walker, Sutcliffe, Nicholson) as some of the experienced third years move on. At that sort of age group, a year makes a huge difference.
Leeds lost the 19s game at home to Wigan by four points to a late try and the 16s game away from home by eight points, hardly indicative of a gap in quality between the two sides.
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| Quote: Andy Gilder "Academy level results are cyclical. They very much depend on where particular teams are in their development - for example this year Leeds have played a number of 16/17 year olds in the U19s, where some sides may have more 18/19 year olds. Next year Leeds are likely to have second year players as the core of the side (Smith, Oledzki, Whiteley, Walker, Sutcliffe, Nicholson) as some of the experienced third years move on. At that sort of age group, a year makes a huge difference.
Leeds lost the 19s game at home to Wigan by four points to a late try and the 16s game away from home by eight points, hardly indicative of a gap in quality between the two sides.'"
Although our academy side of the early 2000s (Mcguire Burrow Walker etc.) were good enough to win the accede my GF 3 years in a row |
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| Quote: BrisbaneRhino "I can understand the sentiment about BM not trying youngsters, but there isn't a single junior player who's left on his watch that there could be any serious regret about leaving. If anything that supports the argument that our youth development system is simply not producing enough quality.
If there were a bunch of ex Academy players starring elsewhere you could make the point, but there just aren't. Luke Gale is the only example I can think of, but given he came through at a time when we had Sinfield-Burrow-McGuire its hard to blame the club (or Gale) for him leaving.
Wigan are often cited as producing a lot of good players, but its interesting to see how many of them seem keen to jump ship at the first sniff of an RU/NRL contract. We haven't lost a club-produced player in that way since Lee Smith in 2009. In addition just like every other club Wigan seem happy to sign dodgy overseas players if there's a gap in the team.'"
Luke Gale left for donny in 2007 and signed for London in 2009. The coach at London then was... |
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| Quote: loiner81 "I've not read all this thread so apologies if i've missed something but...
If Wigan's academy and their coach are both so good then how come they never win anything?
If Leeds' academy is so poor and our coach is so bad (ignoring this season's injury ridden nightmare) how come we keep winning everything?
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Look at our best starting 13 from last year
Hardaker Briscoe Hall Watkins Moon McGuire Sinfield Peacock Aiton Garbutt Ablett Ward Cuthbo
Thats is only 6 academy products and even worse only 2 academy products that have come through in the 5 years of Mac being coach
How can you argue that Mac has brought through youth properly looking at that?
Without bothering to check I can pretty much guarantee that is the lowest number of academy products in any of our first choice 13s in years we have won the GF
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"The Golden Generation finally has its Golden Fleece! They have Wembley Cup Final winners medals to add to their collection."
23/08/2014: |
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| Quote: leedsnsouths "Look at our best starting 13 from last year
Hardaker Briscoe Hall Watkins Moon McGuire Sinfield Peacock Aiton Garbutt Ablett Ward Cuthbo
Thats is only 6 academy products and even worse only 2 academy products that have come through in the 5 years of Mac being coach
How can you argue that Mac has brought through youth properly looking at that?
Without bothering to check I can pretty much guarantee that is the lowest number of academy products in any of our first choice 13s in years we have won the GF'"
2007, we started the GF with 6 academy players. With the exception of Lee Smith they were all playing before Smith took over.
Also seem to recall Singleton getting picked to start the GF whilst Cuthbertson was on the bench.....surprising as Singleton has only ever been picked ahead of others due to injuries. |
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| Quote: ThePrinter "2007, we started the GF with 6 academy players. With the exception of Lee Smith they were all playing before Smith took over.
Also seem to recall Singleton getting picked to start the GF whilst Cuthbertson was on the bench.....surprising as Singleton has only ever been picked ahead of others due to injuries.'"
I said that players only get their chance through injury, Singleton has been playing for 3/4 years
take your point about 2007, I think that after 2005 we over reacted to our lack of experience (which cost arguably our best ever team the treble) by looking overseas rather than the youth system in 2006/7, though remember that McGuire Burrow etc were in their early 20s at that point |
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