He is average but he hasn't always been. Remebmer he was an international early on. I find him terribly disappointing these days but he does a job I suppose.

I just think the level of vitriol is disproportionate to his actions.

As a youth my "hatred" was always for players like Gregory, Edwards and Offiah. Why? because they were great players who could cause damage to my team. I rarely "hated" average players from the opposition ranks. Which is another reason I don't get the Bailey hatred, when so many of his detractors think he is average (and lately they would be right).

I used to use this theory to be mischievous but i do believe there is an element of truth behind it, like I say, probably subconsciously in most cases. Bailey plays prop in a tough sport. He's got every right be be physical, aggressive and probably dirty. But you'd think he'd raped the queen's corgis some weeks on here.

You're getting him mixed up with Joel Monaghan.

The Joel Monaghan incident was entirely consensual. The dog said he wanted it woof.

[sizeTAXI[/size

I understand what you're saying, Gareth, but I genuinely don't think there's much (if any) racism involved. I've certainly never heard any directed towards him from the Wigan fans at least and, as has been mentioned earlier, some of Wigan's greatest heroes are black or mixed race. Boston is pretty much Mr Wigan but you could equally add Hanley, Gill, Offiah and Robinson amongst others who Wigan fan's hold dear to their hearts. I think the 'disproportionate' view to his antics stem more from the fact that, rightly or wrongly, he's regarded as a bit cowardly. I've often heard it levelled at him that he starts things but then 'goes hiding' and often aims his aggression at smaller players but tends to back down if it's a genuine hard man he's up against. I couldn't say whether this reputation is justified or not but I do think it's the reason he cops the ire of opposition fans. At least that's how it seems to me.

I'm not sure whether G1's right or not. But I think you've slightly missed the argument here.

What we're talking about is the kind of unconscious and/or unspoken racism that affects people's reactions, perceptions and context when they view the world. It's different from the sort that makes racist remarks, but it's no less real.

Even with the more overt racism you're talking about, the phenomenon whereby a distinction is drawn between "our blacks and their blacks" has always been common. Have a look at the Shaka Hislop story in the history of Show Racism the Red Card for a famous example.

So to go to your argument that it's the perception that he's cowardly, the issue would not be that that's the perception, it would be why that perception exists. He's certainly biffed it out with the big lads enough times, and he is by no means the first, or only contemporary prop forward who likes to have a pop at a smaller back or half back. Are you telling me Kelvin Skerrett would never have landed one on a scrum half? In fact he used to be involved in a lot of rough stuff, and picked up some bans etc. Then, of course, his reputation was just as your common thug who was always brawling. I've had a real sense that he reached a point where he walked away from trouble more often because he had been convinced that he was more useful on the field than in the stands. I also have a theory that this has cost him some of his old edge and may not actually have been a good thing.

But, to keep to the point, accepting that the perception is, as you say, that he's maligned for being cowardly and niggly, why is it that he has that reputation when objectively his actions are not actually unusual for a prop forward. Most of the fans who level those accusations are unable to point to a specific incident, and when they can it's nothing that half the forwards in the game haven't also done.

There does seem to be prejudice at work. Could be a race issue. Could, I suspect, be connected to people's attitudes to the possibility of rehabilitation into society after being in prison. Could be both.

Either way, it's essentially the Daily Mail's fault.

Nice to have a sensible discussion about it rather than have it dismissed.

I suppose you could never rule it out E.D. but I equally think that sometimes it's and easy conclusion to jump to. It seems to be a catch all to some degree, if you know what I mean. Again, I don't know why he's perceived in this way more than other similar players, but purely on gut instinct I don't feel it's a racist issue. Obviously, I can't say for certain one way or the other but, if it were a racist viewpoint then surely it would equally apply to other black players and not just Bailey? I don't remember other players being regarded in the same way, even several decades ago when it was much more rife, although perhaps there are examples I simply don't know about. I think there is an 'ours and theirs' element to hating certain players but I think it equally applies to players where race couldn't possibly be an issue. Take McIlorum over the last couple days for example; loved by Wigan fans and seemingly hated by everyone else! It's difficult to stake a claim definitively but I just don't feel that's the reason...

I agree with you I do not believe it is a racist issue at all. Bailey was a promising young back row forward who IMO never trully has made the grade consistently as a prop. His aggressive style is mostly show as he has a poor go forward game around the ruck area and goes to ground far too easily. He has been a useful benchman and has been a reliable tackler. But over rated by many Leeds fans and perhaps underated by many opposition fans. I can understand why he is disliked which IMO is down to his playing style and not his colour.

But on balance, he is also a cult hero of Headingley. And a character opposition fans thrive off.

Yes i did mean 'cult'.

So, you're telling me opposition fans hate him because he's inconsistent and ineffective?

This is something which gets slung about alot without too much substance to be honest.

Yes he's levelled half backs and took frustration out on small fries like Chris Riley but he's also put enough big hits on numerous big lads.

Not a great example, but look at last week against Wigan. When it was flaring up and 'Mickey Mac' went high on Peacock. Who was straight in and rushed in on previous aggressor Bateman? Bailey. Yes there was handbags, a gashed head, a dodgy punch and a headlock. No prizes there, but at the same time certainly no hiding.

Just to broaden the discussion a little further, I've placed myself on the Western Terrace for every home game for the past... well since they dug-up the East Terrace and I can genuinely say I have never heard any racist chants or comments.

In fact the only time I have ever heard anything racist at a RL game was from a group of young Leeds 'Chavs' at Odsul about 6 or 7 years ago which was aimed at Bradford's Asian community more than any specific player.

Now I'm not saying the racism doesn't exist in RL as I'm sure, as with all aspects of life, there is, to some degree, elements of racism but gladly in RL it doesn't seem that prevalent.

I have on many an occasion heard taunts and chants aimed at Bailey - his past custodial record and how sexual activities may occur in prison showers, but honestly... nothing racist. I do however understand what Gareth is saying about there being some subconscious dislike of the chap because of his skin colour but I'd like to think that the vitriol aimed his way is for past behaviour and his perceived cowardliness and not because he's black.

I think you've summed it up pretty well for me in that post FB.

However I do see G's point.

An example - In Saturday's game Dudson shoved McGuire in the back well after the ball had gone. In the Magic game last year Bailey shoved Logan Tomkins in the back off the ball. Both were IMO cowardly, both resulted in penalties. My fervant hope is that Dudson cuts this out of his game, and sharpish, but people remember too many of these types of incidents with Bailey.