Quote: Juan Cornetto "You are talking of one season. My point was the general decline in playing standards over the whole McClennan period which include entertainment style and quality of rugby and not soley results. You mention the WCC win. IMO Leeds were current Champions and running hot and would have won it with even you as coach!.......On second thoughts we couldn’t have achieved anything had you been in charge. Your negativity would have seen to that. However I very much doubt McClennan was the key to the team winning the WCC as he had not had time.'"
You don't think Leeds needed a coach to beat a Melbourne team containing the likes of Billy Slater, Israel Falou, Cooper Cronk, Jeremy Smith, Adam Blair, Brett White, Ryan Hoffman, Dallas Johnson and Sika Manu?
The point you choose to ignore is that no coach during the SL Era before or since Brian McClennan has achieved the feat of preparing a side for a successful tilt at the WCC contest and again for a successful end of season Play-Off campaign in the same year.
Is it one season when the following year the SL title was retained, again a unique achievement during the SL Era by an individual coach. Winning a title is hard but how many people (in all sports) state that defending it is even harder? Not only did McClennan's Leeds defend their title but they also completed the unprecedented achievement (not just SL Era this time but in the sport's entire British history) of a back-to back-to back Championship success where a Play-Off system is used to determine the winners.
Perhaps, just perhaps mind, in order to achieve these unique feats of endurance it is also necessary to plan a season where there will be a lull in performance at times in order to be firing when it counts. I somehow doubt the majority of fans even care when looking back what the performances were like along the way to winning or retaining the Championship.
Quote: Juan Cornetto "What is perverse is your continual belief that McClennan did not precide over a decline in discipline when we had a substantial increase in penalties in each of his season in both real terms and when compared with other SL teams'"
The increase was there for all to see but what I find perverse is an attempt to lay the blame for it at the feet of one individual when the same increase was being experienced throughout the league as a collective. Leeds were also receiving a greater number of decisions in their favour to counter-balance any negative effect but this point remains irrelevant to you as you are only prepared to accept one side of the issue.
Quote: Juan Cornetto "So produce the stats that include these few extra games before assuming they will alter the issue. The direction the game was going in is irrelevant as my figures also showed our increase in penalties when compared with all the other teams in SL.'"
I'm more interested in Leeds' record with regard to winning the penalty counts on a game by game basis rather than an abstract total drawn from a selection of games that excludes knock-out football. The instructions from the RFL to their officials is very relevant to the counts as can be any effect caused by the introduction of new officials. For example in 2010 James Child averaged (in Leeds games) 20.5 penalties set against the season average (excluding Child) of 15.6 That’s the best part of 16 penalties on to the total for no other reason than a new official getting up to speed. Not that it’s only the inexperienced official that can skew the count when you have Silverwood operating in a range of 9 to 24 in Leeds games that year. Using the nett figure removes the RFL and variance of officials from the calculation on the broad assumption that referees will be either good or bad on any given day but equally good or bad to both sides.
Quote: Juan Cornetto "Yes it does. Quite how you believe that the penalties concede by the opposition somehow mitigates the increase in our penalties conceded and is therefore ok, I do not know. '"
It indicates that the increase originated at Red Hall rather than at Kirkstall. It wasn't an issue confined to Headingley it was being felt all over the league at the same time. That also implies by and large that the coach is fairly powerless to prevent it initially and can only adjust to the new interpretations as they evolve over the season. And has already shown the increase at Leeds undershot the increase experienced by the league generally in two of the three seasons under McClennan.
Quote: Juan Cornetto "In any case I have already proven to you that when compared with all the other teams in SL we rose up the penalty charts since Bluey took over from Smith.'"
Yes you’ve proven your simplistic point which was never being challenged. Well done.
Is that even an issue when Leeds will have equally risen up the table for penalties received to compensate? It's all relative but you insist on only looking at one side of the equation.
Quote: Juan Cornetto "Another fact which is interesting and highlights the difference between the achievements of Smith and McClennan with regard to discipline is to compare the penalties conceded in SL by Warrington and Leeds in the period that Smith was in charge at Warrington. In both seasons Warrington conceded fewer penalties and were 4th best in the penalty charts whereas Leeds were 5th worst. So Smith has a coaching style that under different teams produces very good consistent discipline. McClennan does not have this record and I seem to remember that the NZ team under him had a bad record for discipline.'"
I seem to remember New Zealand nilling Australia to win a tri-series Final under McClennan, if they did that by kicking lumps out of them then so much the better. Do we really want to compare Smith and McClennan’s record in the International arena?
Quote: Juan Cornetto "What? You’ll be blaming man made global warming next as you wriggle to avoid saying you were wrong in your challenge to my point.'"
I might if it was a relevant factor. Where did I challenge your point? I asked by what criteria you were judging a decline in discipline under McClennan and I think you referred to dissent, type of penalties and the position on the field that they were conceded. I merely asked to see some detail to back this claim but unfortunately none has been forthcoming. You state your assessment is based upon on your own observations, fair enough, although it has to be said you regard Union as entertaining to watch so people should perhaps bear that in mind. Yes I know the last bit was irrelevant but two can play at that game.
Quote: Juan Cornetto "McClennan’s excuses are irrelevant to the issue and do not in any way alter my original point.'"
A coach (and captain) trying to understand and in turn reduce the number of penalties his side was conceding is irrelevant?
Quote: Juan Cornetto "My point was in context to McClennan initially taking over and winning the WCC and to some extent his first Championship.
The team continued to do well playing in the Smith style and Bluey as I have stated deserves the credit for his part in this. However the evidence you have produced to say the team actually improved does not show the skills, style and entertainment value improved and could be due to the general decline in overall SL standards rather than improvement by the coach.'"
What I produced suggests that at the end of McClennan’s first season in charge the team he inherited had maintained it’s league position, winning more games, scoring more points and conceding fewer over the course of a tougher programme due to the WCC and a longer run in the Challenge Cup which included vanquishing their conquerors from the previous season.
If that was down to the previous coach then lets hear your congratulations to McClennan for the 2011 success.
Quote: Juan Cornetto "What is clear is that by 2010 McClennan had managed to change the successful and talented Leeds side with the attractive Smith style of playing into a team playing the McClennan negative and boring style. At the start of 2010 the team was under prepared and tactically awful in adapting to the new interpretations of the ruck area. This was clear from the WCC game onwards as other top teams adapted well with far better technical coaching evident.'"
I think Exeter addressed this point adequately earlier on.
Quote: Juan Cornetto "I have given Bluey credit for his part in this success and have stated that if silverware is the only criteria then he should be in the H of F. However as SL is in the entertainment business IMO there should be other factors to consider in assessing his worth. So taking into consideration these other factors you can argue McClennan has not been quite the success that the silverware might suggest.'"
I get it you don’t rate McClennan.
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Have fun with your reply but I doubt there's anything more for me to add to the discussion.
